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Goodbye
Topic Started: Mar 10 2015, 01:18 PM (4,025 Views)
Mayer
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I think it's pretty clear by now that not everyone sees their time spent online (here or elsewhere) as something that "doesn't matter" compared to what's going on in their real lives. While I don't always understand the complaints nor am I always able to relate to them, I can respect that to someone else, they're important. I'm not going to dismiss what upsets someone else simply because it doesn't upset me. That doesn't mean we need to ignore what upsets other forum members, or even walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting them in the future... but don't dismiss their concerns out-of-hand by trivializing them. Many of the forum members here are very young and don't have the life experience that the older members do to put things in context.

Short version: I don't have to understand your complaint or the source of your distress to acknowledge that, for you, it exists and needs to be addressed in a constructive, inclusive way.

And Susan... I'm glad you posted that here. It needed to be said, and the staff staying mum on the subject helps no one.

Okay for sure that's true about the younger members here, but I was addressing the community as a whole past and present and not specifically this problem of staff inequality because after all this time we're still having these angry discussions. However, like I said people are people and there will always be younger members here (it is a zoo game after all) and hence I don't see a totally constructive way of addressing it (which is why none was mentioned) as what this place needs is not a new set of rules or some new festival, but rather for everyone to be mindful of not taking things here too seriously as we're all supposed to be friends united for a common interest. However, I cannot hard-wire that into every single member's brain, so all I'm left to do it to post about it and hope some people will see what I mean and take it on board.

I was merely saying it like it is and want people to open their eyes and take life here a bit more lightly, whether people want to rethink how seriously they take things here or not is up to them, members of all ages. However, perhaps people can listen to someone who's been around for a while, seen a lot of communities rise and fall, but only watches from a distance. The closer you look, the less you see ;)
Edited by Mayer, Mar 11 2015, 08:29 AM.
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Envy
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Would you look at me? I'm setting records.

>Maybe the staff need to ease up and allow people to express their concerns and opinions in public viewvand maybe everyone needs to stop bitching all the time and be thankful that they have access to a computer and time to spend hours on a game while millions live on the knife edge.

That is by far the best point I've seen, this is a very petty issue compared to everything else that's going on in the world. The community based around this website is quite flawed, but which society or other groups of people isn't? Humans correspond to nature, and as by laws of nature there is no such thing as perfection because there is always improvement, and that's something that we can do.

Speaking on the whole member bias thing, I really didn't want to bring this up once it happened, but now's the best time to talk about it. If you disagree with me, fine m8, you do you.
Anyways, there a was a huge shitfest going on last year between a bunch of people and I concerning leaked downloads on Nexus. I didn't see it as more of generic internet drama. I expected some warnings afterwards (and possibly a ban), but what kind of ticked me off a bit is that some members got off with telling me that I was a shitty person, immoral,a criminal, etc.. But once I was in defense (which I didn't even respond with insults of the same severity or implying stuff about people), I was the "bad guy". Yes, this game means a lot to people career wise (video game designer, graphic arts), but really? One would get so offended by downloading leaked items to imply that an individual is a shitty person or a criminal that would steal things in real life? What was even more idiotic is that one of the admins didn't intervene until the argument was already over. All the member bias pointed against me, sure I brought it on myself. I'm surprised I wasn't banned, and yes, what I said was wrong to some people and I don't intend to stir up more drama to upset them again. Personally I don't care about the controversy caused from what I admitted to, since it's just a game for fun and I don't need to appease to other people's morals who I will never meet in real life or seek approval from. I only apologize if I truly do mean it, I hate sugarcoated and false sympathy. Which is one reason I did not apologize.

I'm getting a bit off-topic with this one, but it's a proper followup to said incident. If I didn't care for this community or this game (as people in that post implied), I wouldn't have tried to help the community by expanding the download database with many old downloads. I got a plethora of ABC/old DM stuff into here even before HENDRIX put up his Google Drive/Dropbox, and I thank him for giving me permission. Jurassic Park Pack and Miocene Madness (thanks to Scottslive as well), one I'm really happy I got back up by convincing JVM. Sure, anyone else could have done the same thing, but I at least took action, right? I ask every possible person before I ever upload anything on here, that's respect and common courtesy. There's a big difference between admitting to downloading leaked content and actually being the one leaking the PU/unreleased content. Which I would never do the second one. I may be an a-hole ( I can attest to it) but I'm not that big of an a-hole.


I am not trying to turn this into a "oh woe is me, the staff are wrong and are tyrants" post. I'm not implying that. I just wanted to address one example (while not calling out anyone in particular) of member bias. If the admins truly were tyrants, they would have gotten my ass (or anyone the general mass didn't agree with) out of here since that argument due to "omg Envy is an a-hole, get him out of here" complaints from more prominent/important members in the community. I am not defending/oppressing a particular side, but I do see valid points from both sides and I just wanted to add more to it. Others could probably include their own personal examples as well.
Edited by Envy, Mar 11 2015, 07:50 PM.
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Admiral General Aladeen
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Welp it doesn't seem this is going to work so I'm going to drop the whole thing because this isn't going anywhere.

I apologize for all the drama, and shizz.
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Envy
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Would you look at me? I'm setting records.

No need to apologize, I'm sure more people agree with you than the excuses from the people who imply that there is no need to come to a resolution and actually fix anything. At least you stepped up against the irony and bs that is presented at "The Round Table", and obvious problems that not many people would want to come straight with it and call it out. Mainly due to the fear of being attacked and the "put it in the staff PM box" deal. I would call it out too (and with an assortment of other examples), and maybe I will in the future, but there's enough problems I've caused already. (x

Stay golden.
Edited by Envy, Mar 11 2015, 11:41 PM.
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Ignacio
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Ex Corrupt Staff

I can't help but find ironic that all of you think that the staff PM box is some kind of opressive feature of this site, when it's function is actually the oposite of that. It was created for members to share their concerns about the site with the staff directly, looking for a more direct comunication, out of the view of the public eye so they don't feel pressured by the opinion of others. So basically is a tool, that when used how is suposed to be used, gives members a way of expression respecting their privacy.

Now if we ever made anyone felt like we were attacking you during a staff PM box conversation then i can say we are sorry about that because i'm sure that wasn't the intention. And if you ever get that impression again will be nice to say it before doing a dramatic exit from the site. Just like this site gives second chances to most members, then members should have that same consideration with the staff, specially if said staff is not aware of the mistakes they (we) made. Calling out our errors won't end up in a reprimend of any kind, it just will help us to improve. For instance, a member call our attention that a warn he recieved was unjustified and after looking into it, it turn out he was right so we removed his warn and apologize. We are human beings and we make mistakes.

You can see almost every member of the staff interacting with the members around the forum, so i'm really confused where did you all get this idea of the staff being some kind of stubborn dictators that won't listen to what the members had to say. I personally have changed a lot of things around here when they were suggested by members and i thought they were right. I know other admins have done the same. And to be completly honest, i can't think of another ZT2 site that i have been a part of that has such an accesible staff like this one.

There are a couple of features coming soon that we have been planning for months to improve the involvement of the members in some of the site discussions (and we thought about them before this new drama of the last few days, because even if you don't realize it, we are always working and thinking about new ways to improve the staff-members relationship). I hope we can implement them soon enough. But even with those features still in the works, members have a lot of participation in the forum decisitions. That is why there is a whole new forum dedicated to forum changes where members can voice out there opinions. That is why we ask before hand if you will like certain change or not. We consider your opinion and it actually help us discern what is a good idea, what isn't, what will work and what won't.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm confused about all this acussations of corruption and the staff not listening to members and acting like dictators, because from my pov i just fail to see it, so all of this really came as a surprise for me (and i think for most of the staff team too).
Edited by Ignacio, Mar 12 2015, 12:01 AM.
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Posted Image Narukota
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blah

This "corruption" everyone is speaking of?
I call it laughable drama.

And do people really think the staff acts like dictators?
They're the whole opposite of that.
They're some of the kindest people I know online.

If you guys really want me to say something that isn't joking,
Click here.
Edited by Narukota, Mar 12 2015, 12:11 AM.
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Ignacio
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Ex Corrupt Staff

Well maybe some people feel like that, but i would like to understand why, because i'm honestly confused about that.
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Deleted User
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It's the perception of a lack of transparency and accountability, Ignacio. It's why juries are comprised of peers, and not secret tribunals kept out of the sight of the public.

Again, this may not have been the intent (I seriously doubt it was), but it's how it's perceived by certain people. The idea is that while a staff PM box is definitely a more "direct line" between members who are having a problem with the site and the staff members who are in a position to do something about that problem, it's also extremely self-contained. The perception is that regardless of your grievance, because the discussion is only being had by the complainant and staff, the complainant is at the complete mercy of the staff with no recourse available if they feel the staff is being unfair (except to complain more to the staff, who have already made their decision).

If the staff PM box is there to keep regular members from feeling pressured or criticized by other members who might comment on their issue, then that's great. But it shouldn't be the only option. If someone is worried or doesn't want outsider input, they can use the PM box. But if they feel that their issue is better discussed with the entire community able to make suggestions or offer explanations in conjunction with staff, then that should be available too.

Again, you guys have the unenviable task of confronting the perception of favoritism, bias, and "corruption." Make yourselves more transparent, not less. Being able to discuss these things openly, as a community, will help keep people from letting their frustrations build up and up and up until we get topics like this, where suddenly everyone is venting and dumping their issues with staff and the site at once, with little-or-no warning.

The complaints and issues might be silly, and in relation to "real world problems," trivial, but I hate this idea that you can't be concerned with more than one thing at a time, or with issues that vary along the micro and macro scale. Yes, world hunger is a problem. Yes, there are other people in the world much, much worse off. But that doesn't mean you should be expected to "shut up and deal with it, or leave" if your issue is deemed petty, small, or silly by others.

I understand the idea of the Staff PM Box being used to help smooth over issues before they snowball. I don't understand the idea that this should be the only method, and that any other method so employed has to be private.

Edit: @Narukota: Instead of constantly posting in what I can only guess is an attempt to be funny or clever, why not try to actually contribute to the discussion? The attitude you're constantly peddling in these discussions is neither cute, nor funny, nor clever, and certainly not constructive. If you feel that the people complaining are being silly, by all means, say so, but the glib attitude is nothing but annoying.
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Ignacio
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Ex Corrupt Staff

Oh i can understand that now. Well, we are working on a feature that i hope will solve that issue. We'll have to try it but i think it could improve this "transparency" issue.
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Zebrasorus
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In reply to "I'm done; this isn't getting solved" "excuses from the people who imply that there is no need to come to a resolution and actually fix anything" comments:

Guys, we're in the process of removing even room for bias in the staff (please note the difference here: not simply telling ourselves not to be biased, but actually taking steps to make it hard to be biased) including a rewrite of the rules and consequences for breaking each to which the staff is to be held accountable to follow. It does take a little time to make all these changes, but we are working.

I know this probably goes along the same lines as the Staff PM Box issue, but there's also a report button. You're more than welcome to use that if you feel a situation needs taken care of. It's possible we don't always see everything (obviously this does not apply to all situations, but it does help when people report an issue). Just for future reference.

It's not being ignored. Please have some patience.

In reply to "Staff is so corrupt; I'll probably get warned if I oppose them" comments:

Simply put, no. You are not going to get warned for disagreeing with us, and nobody should be. I'm confident that all of our staff is aware of that. Once again, the rules rewrite should also help eliminate this perception.

Additionally there is a section specifically for issues with staff in the works in the joinable Discussion Group. This is 100% public (without making the entire board miserable to be on). We are not hiding things. We are not covering them up. We are not warning people that have posted their concerns here. Whether or not you feel we have been corrupt in the past, let this be an example of our good intentions, and the actions we are taking to follow through with them.

tl;dr
We are listening to your concerns. We are acting right now to make changes based on them. We admit we aren't perfect, but that we are trying our best to be our best. We do need your cooperation (not submission, cooperation) and your patience. No covering up, no hiding; straight-up fixing it, but we can't do it without you.
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Envy
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Would you look at me? I'm setting records.

Allright, sounds good. AGA, looks like this wasn't a futile post after all. Good drama gets stuff done.

Also, the reason I said that excuses were being brought up and nothing actually being fixed, is because days ago other people complained as well, and it seemed as though no clear progress was being shown (at least that was my impression). It may have been planned, yes. But this post did push it to a certain degree in which it would bring out fruition sooner. Not saying you guys aren't busy or anything, because monitoring hundreds of people and trying to tend to their individual needs cannot be possibly met to a spectrum that abides to everyone's expectations. I've been admin of larger groups on Facebook pages/groups, for example, and I get how demanding it is and how much people complain to expect changes or that their concerns were being ignored. One solution (out of a few) was increasing the number of admins. So, I'd suggest adding just one more admin. A little extra help doesn't hurt. Another moderator, whatever. Just another staff member that can provide supplemental support and ensure that a post that may have been overlooked by the admins can be given attention.
Edited by Envy, Mar 12 2015, 01:27 AM.
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Posted Image Narukota
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blah

MiBound
Mar 12 2015, 12:13 AM
It's the perception of a lack of transparency and accountability, Ignacio. It's why juries are comprised of peers, and not secret tribunals kept out of the sight of the public.

Again, this may not have been the intent (I seriously doubt it was), but it's how it's perceived by certain people. The idea is that while a staff PM box is definitely a more "direct line" between members who are having a problem with the site and the staff members who are in a position to do something about that problem, it's also extremely self-contained. The perception is that regardless of your grievance, because the discussion is only being had by the complainant and staff, the complainant is at the complete mercy of the staff with no recourse available if they feel the staff is being unfair (except to complain more to the staff, who have already made their decision).

If the staff PM box is there to keep regular members from feeling pressured or criticized by other members who might comment on their issue, then that's great. But it shouldn't be the only option. If someone is worried or doesn't want outsider input, they can use the PM box. But if they feel that their issue is better discussed with the entire community able to make suggestions or offer explanations in conjunction with staff, then that should be available too.

Again, you guys have the unenviable task of confronting the perception of favoritism, bias, and "corruption." Make yourselves more transparent, not less. Being able to discuss these things openly, as a community, will help keep people from letting their frustrations build up and up and up until we get topics like this, where suddenly everyone is venting and dumping their issues with staff and the site at once, with little-or-no warning.

The complaints and issues might be silly, and in relation to "real world problems," trivial, but I hate this idea that you can't be concerned with more than one thing at a time, or with issues that vary along the micro and macro scale. Yes, world hunger is a problem. Yes, there are other people in the world much, much worse off. But that doesn't mean you should be expected to "shut up and deal with it, or leave" if your issue is deemed petty, small, or silly by others.

I understand the idea of the Staff PM Box being used to help smooth over issues before they snowball. I don't understand the idea that this should be the only method, and that any other method so employed has to be private.

Edit: @Narukota: Instead of constantly posting in what I can only guess is an attempt to be funny or clever, why not try to actually contribute to the discussion? The attitude you're constantly peddling in these discussions is neither cute, nor funny, nor clever, and certainly not constructive. If you feel that the people complaining are being silly, by all means, say so, but the glib attitude is nothing but annoying.
Did you try clicking the spoiler?
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Zebrasorus
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Envy
Mar 12 2015, 01:18 AM
Good drama gets stuff done.
No. Drama does not get things done. Bringing concerns to the staff's attention does. Good may have come out of it, but it could have been handled better on both ends, in my opinion. But we're making a section for that, so...

Envy
Mar 12 2015, 01:18 AM
One solution (out of a few) was increasing the number of admins to. So, I'd suggest adding just one more admin. A little extra help doesn't hurt. ;)
This, however, is probably a good point. We have discussed staff changes, though we feel the other matters are more pressing at the immediate moment. That said, it's something to keep an eye out for in the near future. Thanks for the input!
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Danny
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Admiral General Aladeen
Mar 11 2015, 09:38 PM
Welp it doesn't seem this is going to work so I'm going to drop the whole thing because this isn't going anywhere.
This is why we have always asked for private discussion with staff or a post in the discussion group first. Starting drama publicly like this means that the staff can't even begin working on fixing problems because they're forced to work on calming everyone down first. We are busy working on stuff but it would have happened a lot faster if we actually knew what members thought before a couple days ago.

Could ALL discussion of the events of the last few days please be continued in the Discussion Group. Posts made publicly from now on will be removed so as to keep the site a little calm and keep the Welcome section for what it is meant to be for. Thank you! :)

Also, Narukota, your posts are not contributing a lot to the discussion and do come across as spam-like. Please try to avoid this as it can be very frustrating to the members who are trying to take this seriously.
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