Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]






Shoot a firework rocket ~ Winners!
Make a forum zoo!

Welcome to The Round Table. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
New Zoo Game
Topic Started: Jul 2 2016, 03:34 AM (11,911 Views)
Howard3DG
Member Avatar
Howard3DG

What engine are you guys thinking of using? I see a lot of people jumping on unity these days and (not really knowing the ins and outs of game designing myself) the results often look a lot weaker than with say Cryengine, but like I said I don't fully understand the process. Really awesome to even see some potential in this though :D
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stargatedalek
Member Avatar
I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

Different engines depend on the intended final product and on what methods of development are easiest for the user. For example Cryengine may not have the same potential as Unity but I've heard people say it's easier to use.

Unity has better mod support though, so that would be my recommendation for a tycoon project.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HENDRIX
Member Avatar
-retired-

Cryengine is rather tailored for FPS games, while unity really works for anything.
The final visuals don't depend on the engine, they are more or less equivalent in performance and supported technologies.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Howard3DG
Member Avatar
Howard3DG

Ah okay, I did wonder if that was the case with cryengine. Mod support is always a welcome feature haha :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HENDRIX
Member Avatar
-retired-

Mod support is really not "built-in", it really depends on how developers code their assets. From my humble experience with mod makers, I would seek to avoid mod support.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tigris115
Member Avatar


Why is that HENDRIX?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HENDRIX
Member Avatar
-retired-

Because mods tend to be made badly and are apt to break things.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tigris115
Member Avatar


I can see where you're coming from
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stargatedalek
Member Avatar
I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

Didn't this entire concept originate from the mod support provided by Blue Fang? Admittedly they never created a development kit or resources for the community but the game was designed with basic mod support in-mind.

As the developer it isn't your place to dictate whether someone should be "allowed" to "ruin" the game or not. If they want to install broken mods and break the game than that's their own fault and their own doing. Not only is it virtually impossible for including mod support to reflect badly on the developers, but in this day and age mod support is virtually mandatory if you want your game to have any significant replay value. Even story based games like Fallout have seen huge boosts to their player-bases because of mods. No way a tycoon game will get anywhere these days without at least leaving the code open for easy mod access, if not including active mod support.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Iben
Member Avatar
There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

stargatedalek
Nov 8 2016, 04:26 PM


As the developer it isn't your place to dictate whether someone should be "allowed" to "ruin" the game or not.
Yes it is. As a developer, you are in no way supposed to allow mods to your game. It is your code, so it is your place to say whether you want mods or not. It's as simple as that.

You're entitled to your opinion here, but from a game aspect and a legal aspect, you barely have a leg to stand on.

Quote:
 
...but the game was designed with basic mod support in-mind.

Not really no. Z2F's were just easy to open and XML is easy to learn; but there's absolutely nothing that would even remotely suggest that the game was made with mod-support in mind.

That doesn't change the fact that BFKeith mentioned that BF liked the mods, but the statement you made here isn't remotely based on anything factual. If anything, BF at one point made it harder for us to mod the game, see the locking of the Dino Danger z2f file.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Posted Image Flish
Member Avatar


Regardless of whether it is anyone's decision, intentionally making a game hard to mod is just a terrible idea if you want to make money off of it for more than a few years, especially if it's a tycoon-style game. Zoo Tycoon and Zoo Tycoon 2 are probably the best examples of this. Zoo Tycoon was still getting modded and played extensively probably up past Ultimate Collection's release, 7 years after its release. Zoo Tycoon 2 was released in 2004 and is doing even better as evident by this community, almost 13 years later. If Blue Fang had been able to renew their contract with Microsoft, I am sure they'd still be able to make quite a bit of money off of the game even today, considering how often we hear of people trying to get the game despite it no longer being produced, all because of the insane amounts of playability and freedom to do as you please.

And, while Zoo Tycoon XBox was objectively a bad game, I don't think anyone will deny the way they effectively tried to prevent mod support for it was what prevented us from hearing anything else about it after the first few months.
Edited by Flish, Nov 9 2016, 04:16 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
stargatedalek
Member Avatar
I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

Iben
Nov 9 2016, 12:17 AM
stargatedalek
Nov 8 2016, 04:26 PM


As the developer it isn't your place to dictate whether someone should be "allowed" to "ruin" the game or not.
Yes it is. As a developer, you are in no way supposed to allow mods to your game. It is your code, so it is your place to say whether you want mods or not. It's as simple as that.

You're entitled to your opinion here, but from a game aspect and a legal aspect, you barely have a leg to stand on.
I demand sources. The only references I've ever heard of companies suing people for modding their games always fell through because the mods didn't distribute enough base game code to allow for piracy nor generate any profit. If someone accepted donations specifically for assistance in developing their mods or created an entire new game built upon the base code that was playable without owning the original game, then you might have a case.

Quote:
 

Quote:
 
...but the game was designed with basic mod support in-mind.

Not really no. Z2F's were just easy to open and XML is easy to learn; but there's absolutely nothing that would even remotely suggest that the game was made with mod-support in mind.

That doesn't change the fact that BFKeith mentioned that BF liked the mods, but the statement you made here isn't remotely based on anything factual. If anything, BF at one point made it harder for us to mod the game, see the locking of the Dino Danger z2f file.
All I know is that at one point Blue Fang developers mentioned that they approved of people creating mods and set up links to modding resources on their site. Whether any appearance of support was coincidental or not the fact that it boosted the games popularity and replay value significantly is objective fact. People are even still buying the game new (Microsoft is sharing credit with Ubisoft on it now, so I assume Ubisoft is selling it for them) because of the presence of modding community for it.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HENDRIX
Member Avatar
-retired-

It's not that they deliberately prevented mod support for Xbox; they just didn't make it easy. When you add multiplayer functions, mod support is inherently problematic for obvious reasons. But on the most basic level, it is additional work to create a standalone asset management system to allow for modability, when you could just use the built-in asset management of the engine's SDK. That is cheap and easy, but locks out the modders.

I don't remember any resources for ZT2 modding on the official website, but if I recall correctly a few usermade ZT1 downloads where endorsed there, maybe some tutorials too.
For ZT1 they provided tools. For ZT2 they never bothered and never intended to do so.

I fail to see how your response is related to what Iben said? The legal aspects of users producing mods and the game creator's "responsibility" of making modding easy are not connected, aren't they?

I think you overestimate the impact of modding on sales, at least for ZT2.

As I luckily don't depend on this in any way and at the moment the "new game" is only hypothetical anyway, I could frankly care less.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Posted Image Flish
Member Avatar


It was definitely not a big selling point for Zoo Tycoon 2, but at the time modding wasn't nearly as commonplace as it is now among games. Even then, it kept loyal fans around.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Iben
Member Avatar
There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

stargatedalek
Nov 9 2016, 05:07 PM
Iben
Nov 9 2016, 12:17 AM
stargatedalek
Nov 8 2016, 04:26 PM


As the developer it isn't your place to dictate whether someone should be "allowed" to "ruin" the game or not.
Yes it is. As a developer, you are in no way supposed to allow mods to your game. It is your code, so it is your place to say whether you want mods or not. It's as simple as that.

You're entitled to your opinion here, but from a game aspect and a legal aspect, you barely have a leg to stand on.
I demand sources. The only references I've ever heard of companies suing people for modding their games always fell through because the mods didn't distribute enough base game code to allow for piracy nor generate any profit. If someone accepted donations specifically for assistance in developing their mods or created an entire new game built upon the base code that was playable without owning the original game, then you might have a case.

http://mttlr.org/2012/11/06/gaming-mods-and-copyright/

And more precisely :
Quote:
 
While there are arguments to be made for fair use defenses or definitions of mods as derivative works, mods exist in a consistently shifting legal grey area, subject to the vagaries of developer whimsy.
...
This means that mods are “legal” only insofar as game developers suffer them to be so; the moment a developer finds a mod distasteful, it can be found to infringe copyright.


Also the fact that you think whether or not someone makes money with it would make any difference on the legality of the mods, shows that you don't really understand copyright laws.

Believe me, as a professional developer I'm supposed to know this, but software is protected quite well.
Quote:
 

Quote:
 

Quote:
 
...but the game was designed with basic mod support in-mind.

Not really no. Z2F's were just easy to open and XML is easy to learn; but there's absolutely nothing that would even remotely suggest that the game was made with mod-support in mind.

That doesn't change the fact that BFKeith mentioned that BF liked the mods, but the statement you made here isn't remotely based on anything factual. If anything, BF at one point made it harder for us to mod the game, see the locking of the Dino Danger z2f file.
All I know is that at one point Blue Fang developers mentioned that they approved of people creating mods and set up links to modding resources on their site. Whether any appearance of support was coincidental or not the fact that it boosted the games popularity and replay value significantly is objective fact. People are even still buying the game new (Microsoft is sharing credit with Ubisoft on it now, so I assume Ubisoft is selling it for them) because of the presence of modding community for it.


They mentioned they liked the mods ( as I said) and linked to community sites on their sites. ZTDC was a big community site back then, so of course it was included; but by no means they actually linked to modding resources like you said. Mod support in ZT was a coincidence, not something they planned or actively promoted by providing resources. ( the fact that they never gave us anything to work with BFB models says enough)

BTW, you ask me for a source, but just go by and say that mod support has boosted the game is just a fact; without any kind of proof for that. It might surprise you; but the majority of the players probably were never on the forums. We're a small portion of a small group of people who played the game, the vast majority of the original gamers probably didn't have mods.


All in all, acting as if a developer should make it possible to do mods, which btw involves extra work, as if you're entitled to that; just shows how you think about developers. :P
Edited by Iben, Nov 10 2016, 02:01 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply