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PU Downloads
Topic Started: Jun 25 2017, 04:28 AM (2,358 Views)
fresco3
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I'm sure this topic has come up before and in no way am I saying it's wrong. However, I'm curious as to why people decide to keep content PU. As a designer, surely you want to design things that other people can use (the whole concept of the industry).

I only ask because I see so many people say this or that is PU casually.

Also, if you're a designer, I'd be curious as to why you decide to keep thing short PU rather than share your marvellous creations. Is it just personal preference or for other reasons?

Again, no way saying it's wrong. I would just like to know why it I so common in the community?

😀
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bunteriro
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There are different reasons.

A big thing is that if the original designer declared his stuff not PD, all designers using this stuff aren´t allowed to release anything based on the non-PD stuff. Examples: Shophie´s building sets or some skins of RR animals.
You can only release stuff that is based on your own work or of PD work.

Second: sometimes the designers think it was so a little work it´s not worth to share. Like a reskin which just adjusts the colorr a bit or is made rather fast. Some designers want that their released work has a higher level of own work/quality work.

Third: Sometimes designers made things for their own use or just their friends and like the exclusive touch.

All in all I understand that this PD/PU thing is a bit strange if you are used to other communities where there is a much more loose opinion about this. I know thi sfrom the sims 2 community. there it´s common that everyone can reupload things so they don´t got lost for the community or use anything the community produces as long as they give credit.
The problem in the zt2 community is there were some affairs woth offended designers. In their opinion this free use of their work was disrespectful, often leaving the community, and over time it become standard that it´s the privilege of the designers to declare how their work can be used by others and if the designer says nothing about it his work ist treated like he has the most strict opinion to not offend anyone.
Edited by bunteriro, Jun 25 2017, 01:56 PM.
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Furka
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Also worth mentioning that some people make PU stuff that's very specific for their zoos and so it wouldn't have a purpose to be released (if someone made a sign with the name of their zoo no one else would really need it).
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Piano
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They stayed up late; they trashed the house

And one other thing, A lot of PU stuff is also considered "unfinished". It often will lack pedia info, polished icons, missing sick/dirty skins, etc.
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Yukon
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insta: yukons_designs

Maybe you're just too lazy to make sure everything is useable and ready for release...
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stargatedalek
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

I release everything I make. I don't believe in PU content unless it's something like logos or signs for a specific zoo because those would be irrelevant to everyone else. Even unfinished things like basic reskins I will still release them.

That's not to say I release everything "as a download", if it's not from PD content than I'll only upload for example my edited skin files and so that way anyone who wants to use them can import them onto the original of their own accord.

This modding community is unlike any other, and frankly not in a good way.

No other modding community has so huge, or so dysfunctional, of a disconnect between creators and users. Many content creators become very entitled acting like people need to "earn" the stuff they make, but that shouldn't be how it is. It should just be about sharing what you've made. When I used to mod for Fallout New Vegas I didn't do it for recognition, or for respect, I did it for fun, but this community isn't like that.

Content creators will refuse to let others use their work as a base because they feel it's somehow an insult to them if their content is used by someone else to make something "inferior". This pressure from "the popular designers" often ends up discouraging or even shaming people trying to start out, or who just don't want to make things entirely from scratch, and they quit or never release anything because "it's never good enough". The problem isn't that users/downloaders are demanding higher quality releases, the problem is that these popular designers and teams are setting bars unreasonably high that can't be met by someone who's starting out who or doesn't want to devote a ton of time to making content for the game. And the designers who for whatever reason chose to take it personally when someone wants to make something but doesn't have the skills or time to do it from scratch and go after them, and I've seen some pretty vicious attacks over the years, intimidate a lot of people who would otherwise be creating content and enjoying the game.

Cliques form and they share things between them and show them around to everyone, disgusting. In other games if you make a personal mod for you and your friends you keep it personal, nothing wrong with that, but you don't show it off every chance you get to make everyone jealous, that's something only this game does.

This may sound like an odd statement but this is largely a community of "artists" and not of "content creators", and that's not a good thing. "Artists" are in it for respect or recognition, whereas "content creators" want to customize their gameplay experience and have fun, the two don't mix well together at all.
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Yukon
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insta: yukons_designs

stargatedalek
Jun 25 2017, 01:03 PM
I release everything I make. I don't believe in PU content unless it's something like logos or signs for a specific zoo because those would be irrelevant to everyone else. Even unfinished things like basic reskins I will still release them.

That's not to say I release everything "as a download", if it's not from PD content than I'll only upload for example my edited skin files and so that way anyone who wants to use them can import them onto the original of their own accord.

This modding community is unlike any other, and frankly not in a good way.

No other modding community has so huge, or so dysfunctional, of a disconnect between creators and users. Many content creators become very entitled acting like people need to "earn" the stuff they make, but that shouldn't be how it is. It should just be about sharing what you've made. When I used to mod for Fallout New Vegas I didn't do it for recognition, or for respect, I did it for fun, but this community isn't like that.

Content creators will refuse to let others use their work as a base because they feel it's somehow an insult to them if their content is used by someone else to make something "inferior". This pressure from "the popular designers" often ends up discouraging or even shaming people trying to start out, or who just don't want to make things entirely from scratch, and they quit or never release anything because "it's never good enough". The problem isn't that users/downloaders are demanding higher quality releases, the problem is that these popular designers and teams are setting bars unreasonably high that can't be met by someone who's starting out who or doesn't want to devote a ton of time to making content for the game. And the designers who for whatever reason chose to take it personally when someone wants to make something but doesn't have the skills or time to do it from scratch and go after them, and I've seen some pretty vicious attacks over the years, intimidate a lot of people who would otherwise be creating content and enjoying the game.

Cliques form and they share things between them and show them around to everyone, disgusting. In other games if you make a personal mod for you and your friends you keep it personal, nothing wrong with that, but you don't show it off every chance you get to make everyone jealous, that's something only this game does.

This may sound like an odd statement but this is largely a community of "artists" and not of "content creators", and that's not a good thing. "Artists" are in it for respect or recognition, whereas "content creators" want to customize their gameplay experience and have fun, the two don't mix well together at all.
I want to state, that I am highly against PU in general, I have continued Eryel's PD policy with all my creations, just so I don't get missunderstood.

But fact is: Desinging is art. We are artists, not machines. We use a lot of our free time to create tons of stuff (some more, some less :P ) We do a lot of research, practicing, remaking and re-remaking before we are statisfied with our results. If you google game design, you'd probably notice, that people will have to study arts for that. You've might heard the term CG Artist...

In this community there are two points of view. I know both of them very well, because I have been active in both sections a lot.

First of all we have the zoo builders section. Personally I think this game is all about building the best zoos possible. But with PU downloads, chances are not equal for everybody. I always hated that when I didn't have friends here and no one who could give me PU downloads, and still try to use as few as possible or release all I am using. I honestly think, there should be more non-PU contests, as in my opinion, this really shows the skill of a zoo builder, creating new and cool ideas with the ressources everybody has. People who just make the stuff they need for the exact situation might be very good artists, but not creative builders in my humble opinion.

Second, there is the designers perspective. I don't have to repeat, how much work I as a designer am putting into my work. I have collected more than 400 images of lions and cats, just for my asiatic lion for example. I figured out the ideal way for the topology for the RR lion. It took me ages, and to be honest, I am really proud of it, as I really like the result. So let's imagine this. Here comes another member, calling himself designer. He is using my model that I kindly share for anybody, my piece of art, that took me so long and costed me so many frustrated moments, maybe using it's original skin, just somehow pasting another eye or stripes on them, changin the color in 10 seconds and after 10 minutes of work, calls it a tiger. Might be a nice achievement for him, but now he's posting it online, stating: Tiger created by myself. He might mention credits to Yukon, he might not. So now people who see the render might think, wow nice tiger, nice model, great job. And I ask myself: why did I put so much effort in this? Just using somebody else's work and doing 5 minutes of color grading would be enough. People comment and praise his modelling skills, and don't even notice who did 99% of the work.

I don't mind people using my work for their artwork, as long as it is their artwork. But people who don't even try to learn proper modelling or skinning, but are statisfied by doing 5 minutes of edits to another ones art and just saying it is "mostly" their own, dissapoint me. Might be a selfish reaction, but that's just how things work. When you're doing an artwork, it took time and effort and made you proud, you don't want somebody else getting all the credits for it who didn't even try to make it his own by really editing the model or making a skin or maybe at least asking for help or how to improve.

These people are no artists, they are the machines that some of you might want. Producing new animals, not creating them...

I wouldn't say that artists want recognition and content creators just want fun, content creators want recognition, but without much work. Games are artwork, and if you don't agree, you should maybe consider stop playing them, because this fact won't change too soon...
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Anton
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King of Cotingas

stargatedalek
 
No other modding community has so huge, or so dysfunctional, of a disconnect between creators and users. Many content creators become very entitled acting like people need to "earn" the stuff they make, but that shouldn't be how it is. It should just be about sharing what you've made. When I used to mod for Fallout New Vegas I didn't do it for recognition, or for respect, I did it for fun, but this community isn't like that.

Couple things fundamentally wrong with this quote.
1) "Many content creators become very entitled." Aren't the users in this example more 'entitled' to wanting the creations, than the creaters are in keeping it to themselves?
2) "that shouldn't be how it is. It should just be about sharing what you've made. " the designers that create content, by all means legally and morally are the owners of what they make. Why shouldn't that be how it is?

stargatedalek
 
the problem is that these popular designers and teams are setting bars unreasonably high that can't be met by someone who's starting out who or doesn't want to devote a ton of time to making content for the game.

I'm sorry, but the problem is that current day designers set the bar too high? Isn't that the entire point of designing, to improve what is already there?
Of course they can't be met by someone who's starting out or who doesn't want to devote a ton of time to it. A young kid with no aspirations would never beat Usain Bolt in a sprint race, are you going to blame Usain for being "too fast?"

stargatedalek
 
Cliques form and they share things between them and show them around to everyone, disgusting.

Imagine you make something you're quite proud of, but didn't put a lot of time or effort in. For example, you wanted to make a crocodile but didn't want to bother skinning anything but the head, as that's the only thing that would be seen in the picture you're making it for. On top of that, for ingame photography reasons you decide to get rid of the animations (aka just make it a placeable object).
A very good friend of yours comes along and is looking for that exact crocodile species, but it'd be redundant to make the same thing again so it is passed on. It's not good enough for release since only the head is skinned and it's just a still object, but the friend understands that and doesn't want anything more. The general public might not be so understanding because they don't know from the picture that it wasn't completely finished, and comes to the conclusion that the original designer must be too lazy to share with everyone.

stargatedalek
 
This may sound like an odd statement but this is largely a community of "artists" and not of "content creators", and that's not a good thing. "Artists" are in it for respect or recognition, whereas "content creators" want to customize their gameplay experience and have fun, the two don't mix well together at all.

No, there isn't a difference. Designing, like Yukon explained very well, is an art like any other.

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SLGray
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Guys & Girls! This is a personal choice. There is no right or wrong.
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Jannick
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Papua merdeka!

I have created quite a lot of PU content over the years simply because I needed something for my zoo - usually a very specific species that closely resembles one that already exists. Because I crave consistency and can't stand two similar species looking different in style and overall appearance, I make some edits to the existing model and skin. I keep them for "myself" because I don't like to publically release something that's just a quick edit of someone elses creation, made for my own convenience. It feels wrong to "hijack" other peoples work and get credit for it, and I also don't want to profile myself as a designer who just edits other peoples' work when I know I can just create stuff from scratch.
Then there are several cases where I edit someone else's work because I think it needs improvement, but I don't like to publically release them because it would feel like I'm trying to shame or one-up the original creator.
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Serpyderpy
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Ambassador of The Little Guys™

This discussion always seem to rustle a few feathers and always likens the apparent 'divide' between creators and consumers. It always amazes me how bitter and vindictive people can get about the subject of PU when in reality it's never as deep or as winding as people seem to think it is. The idea that designers have to release almost everything they make, and that they can't have a little bit to themselves, is a harrowing and rather nasty mindset to have.

I can guarantee you most of the content ever made for ZT2 is public, but as soon as someone notions that something in an update is PU it always seems like the floodgates open. To tell the truth? Most people who use PU only ever use about one or two pieces, and if they have it they're inclined to use it, so that little note of 'some of the things in this update are PU' gets recycled onto more and more updates, and by the connotation of repitition alone that can trick the mind into thinking a lot more of the update content is really PU when in reality, it's, what, a few bushes? Maybe an animal, or a retextured wall? Look at the swathes of content you have that is public and can be used however, whenever, that generous designers have spent hours or even days making for people to use. Focusing on that one item you can't have is blinding.

What even constitutes as PU? The definition seems to be something that only a certain person or group of people can use, but that something is a very, very broad term. What constitutes as something? Anything. That big logo that only one person will ever get use out of because it's a specific name for a zoo is obviously going to remain PU. The minor retexture of a wall that's on a set that can't be released publicly without permission and the creator is no longer super active? PU. A bush that had it's saturation boosted because you needed some more colour to it? PU. Most PU content is minor, and something that can easily be replicated if you give it a go.

Those creators who do make new animals, foliage and whatever else do exist, and it's out there, but are they not allowed to make something they can enjoy for themselves, for once? Do traditional artists always have to make art that they show? Do chefs always have to make food for others and never themselves? For all the work that designers do, I think they're allowed to make things for themselves, and if they want to give it to some friends, I don't see why that's so bad. It's not disfunctional. It's nice to sometimes have something that only you and your friends can enjoy. That's called being human, and it's neither selfish nor a grand scheme to split the community apart like some defunct Moses and the Red Sea. You'd hate it if you had to share everything you had with someone else consistently.

You may argue content creators know they will more or less share things with others when they take up the prospect of designing, but becoming a designer doesn't relinquish your rights and needs as a human being. It's not a be all and end all occuptation for life. If someone wants to release something they made, great! If they don't, also great! They made it, and so they can do what they want with it. Both content creators and consumers are required for the community to exist and both seem to be, dare I say, doing okay? There isn't some underlining conspiracy theory for all designers to suddenly stop making public content and I'm pretty sure the consumer base isn't going to light fires and flail pitchforks around if one download isn't avaliable. Just be glad this modding community is fairly left to the people within it. There has been so much crap recently regarding mods (just go look at OpenIV and Take 2 and how nasty that situation is) that I'm glad someone can waltz into this website one day, ask for help, and most people will be inclined to offer said help and they can be well on their way to designing.

tl;dr it's not that deep, fam. Let people do what they want. Live and let live. Etc. Etc.

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stargatedalek
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

If everything I had was a digital something that was shared via duplication, hell yes I'd share it with everyone, the only possible reason not to is if I was making a profit, which no one here is. You can't accurately make an analogue between something that only exists digitally and is duplicated infinitely every time someone downloads a copy of it, in an entirely non-profit setting, to physical things that exist individually, are owned by an individual, and cost resources for each individual item. Sharing something physical is entirely different from sharing data, sharing a physical thing gives up something, sharing a digital thing duplicates that thing. If I let someone borrow my TV that's me unable to use my TV while they use it, but I can give someone a mod I made and the only thing it will cost me is the time of uploading and sharing it, which is a one-time investment.

Large parts of this games community are based around the idea of making things in the game and showing them off. The reason this originally picked up years ago was because anyone could do it, not everyone could design, not everyone could make machinima, but anyone could take screenshots of what they made in-game. Then PU content picked up, with people making things for the sake of being the only one(s) able to use them in these displays. The entire point was to uneven the playing field, it was to give certain groups of people access to things that they could show off and brag about. Yes, it isn't always that way now, but that was what it was like when it started (or rather, when people started showing them around and using the term widely), hence my embitterment towards the concept as a whole.
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Iben
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

stargatedalek
Jun 26 2017, 09:15 PM
Then PU content picked up, with people making things for the sake of being the only one(s) able to use them in these displays. The entire point was to uneven the playing field, it was to give certain groups of people access to things that they could show off and brag about. Yes, it isn't always that way now, but that was what it was like when it started (or rather, when people started showing them around and using the term widely), hence my embitterment towards the concept as a whole.
Has it ever occurred to you that this might just be what you read into it ? Perhaps it's just as simple as "people want to make exhibit A and need object B to make it, so they make object B". I'm afraid that your embitterment towards the concept has made you look for reasons that simply aren't there. Like Serpyderpy said, sometimes the reasons why people do things are extremely simple and not as complex as you make it.

Of course, people get praise when you show exhibits that are nice and cool, and sometimes PU content is a part of what makes it look nice and cool. But if you really think that the majority of people were actively making PU content solely so they were going to get praised and just so they could brag about it, then I'm afraid you truly are just embittered about it.

My god, sometimes this feels as if we're talking about life or death issues here, whilst in the end it's just screenshots. Of a game. Of people having fun playing the game. :P Perhaps loosening up a bit might be a good thing for this community, instead of going the over-dramatic route every single time. ( And just so you know, I know, I've gone that route myself on multiple times as well, I'll admit that :P )
Edited by Iben, Jun 27 2017, 02:10 AM.
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Nils
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Bitter people like stargatedalek who wouldn't for the life of it grant someone some space to make own decisions and feel like they have the right to force us to release some simple object modification just so "everyone's chances are equal" make me want to release fewer designs.
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Yukon
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Well she couldn't just spend the time arguing on learning designing and do the stuff herself :P
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