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PU Downloads
Topic Started: Jun 25 2017, 04:28 AM (2,359 Views)
Vigoga
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⚕ Veterinariament ⚕

First of all I want to make it clear that I am NOT a designer (And I do not know if that de-legitimizes me to talk about this matter). In any case, an editor of content created by other people. My vocation has never been related to technology, digital design, animation or any other work that great people here carry out with excellent results. As a user of this community for years, I have often seen the existence of PU content in zoos that I envied. Then I thought it was something out of my reach, but it was something that made me one day install a couple of basic programs to play with coding and models ... The results, in a short time, were very hopeful for me. Much of the PU content consists of small edits available to anyone, although (like me) being inept for computing.

I blame myself in any case for what Yukon comments about the laziness that is used as an excuse for not releasing PU content, but it also seems to me that the severe copyright policy that some creators have imposed on their downloads plays an important role. Most of my edits are made of non-PD content.

In fact, PU is a minimal part of all "available" content that is displayed in any S&T, and in many cases consists of simple reskins that do not need the use of Photoshop. If you consider that your zoo needs a plant or animal with features X, slightly different from the basic discharge, try to enter the world of design as you can. As I said, you can get pretty nice results just using the Note Pad, Nifskope, Paint and PowerPoint. XP
Edited by Vigoga, Jun 27 2017, 07:21 AM.
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TheWatcher
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He who Watches from behind the Scenes

Yukon
Jun 25 2017, 03:08 PM
Second, there is the designers perspective. I don't have to repeat, how much work I as a designer am putting into my work. I have collected more than 400 images of lions and cats, just for my asiatic lion for example. I figured out the ideal way for the topology for the RR lion. It took me ages, and to be honest, I am really proud of it, as I really like the result. So let's imagine this. Here comes another member, calling himself designer. He is using my model that I kindly share for anybody, my piece of art, that took me so long and costed me so many frustrated moments, maybe using it's original skin, just somehow pasting another eye or stripes on them, changin the color in 10 seconds and after 10 minutes of work, calls it a tiger. Might be a nice achievement for him, but now he's posting it online, stating: Tiger created by myself. He might mention credits to Yukon, he might not. So now people who see the render might think, wow nice tiger, nice model, great job. And I ask myself: why did I put so much effort in this? Just using somebody else's work and doing 5 minutes of color grading would be enough. People comment and praise his modelling skills, and don't even notice who did 99% of the work.

I don't mind people using my work for their artwork, as long as it is their artwork. But people who don't even try to learn proper modelling or skinning, but are statisfied by doing 5 minutes of edits to another ones art and just saying it is "mostly" their own, dissapoint me. Might be a selfish reaction, but that's just how things work. When you're doing an artwork, it took time and effort and made you proud, you don't want somebody else getting all the credits for it who didn't even try to make it his own by really editing the model or making a skin or maybe at least asking for help or how to improve.

These people are no artists, they are the machines that some of you might want. Producing new animals, not creating them...
Ok, so to start of these "chats" are never a good idea. This one in particular has shown true colours of some people.

So just to say, I have a lot of PU too. I have been in the community for a long time but never actually signed up. I do a heck of a lot of reading though and checking out this site a lot.
So my opinion on PU, it's ok. People can make as they wish and what may be "deemed" as selfish by others, they can keep it to themselves. Who's cares.

Speaking of keeping things to themselves, your attack on those just edit model is hardly related to the PU Download topic in general. All I see from your "They are no artists, they are just machines" is that you are stuck up and to be honest incredibly rude. That just shows your true colors that you think they are " lesser" than you. I edit models? Am I lesser than you? Sometimes even editing takes a long time. Some are more easy than others and only take about 10 minutes, but some are actually really difficult. I've spent hours, days even weeks trying to edit models and skins only to still be unsatisfied by the result and start again.

Is it cheating or hijacking? If the model is PD the original creator has probably thought "Hey! This model would be good for something else, with a few adjustments. I will make it PD". Iv'e spoken to a few people and friends of mine that may of misunderstood this but are so disheartened by your thinking less of them. Not everyone is as talented as you Yukon, but not everyone has the time to sit there and learn every button in blender or can make things from scratch.

So for example Lgcfm has a Brown Hyena, made from Striped Hyena from AD. Hendrix made the model. There's no model edits just the skin which was done by Emilie. Lgcfm made a awesome Skin and she worked hard on it. Are you disappointed in her? You realise more than half the community makes edits for new species. But she thought it's good... so I shall share it! If credits are fully given what the problem? Do you want me to kiss your shoes? End of the day the original creator should see credits and even think "Hey that's my mesh! It's awesome they made something new from it!" Not moaning they only changed the skin or made a simple edit, your hard work has paid off. Now it can help others.

Some like Jannick make a fair point, he doesn't feel happy releasing it with minor edits. Ok that's fine, that's up to him. That's his moral decision and a good one. But some people want to share? What's wrong with it? Might be a 10 min edit or a weeks. If it is PD it is ok right?

This what I quoted is more of an attack on those you deem again "lesser". That's how I see it and a few others. I may be no "Artist" but I sure ain't no machine and I sure don't want be catogorized as a "Hijacker or cheater". I have been told your stuck up and judgemental. This gives a great impression on that.
Edited by TheWatcher, Jun 27 2017, 11:48 AM.
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Burns
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King of Lemurs

I'm going to be completely honest. I make PU stuff because I am selfish and it makes my zoos look more unique as the stuff adds personality to my creations. That being said I don't think that PU is really negative at all. If anything it pushes people to learn designing. That's actually why I got into PU stuff in the first place. You see people's creations and you want it, but you can't have it. That gives you the options to 1. (most preferably) make the thing yourself, such as a darker bush reskin. Once you learn how to make it you can learn more design tricks and eventually if you feel up to it, release some of the works you are most proud of.

If designing is an art, and if I spend many months making a mural, who says I can't hang it up in my own house?
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RGDS
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I don't believe people want machine making downloads or whatever, but it's satisfying to use whatever species you want to use.
I have myself some PU stuff. Some I wanted to release but felt they weren't good enough, this thread made me rethink it a bit, I'll deal with it after vacation.

But this bullshit about artist, CREATING and not producing. Really dude, no offense, your work is amazing, and all the effort you put into it is even more, but I'm pretty sure if someone could make a good african lioness out of your work, even if it's just some small edits, many people will be happy and will use it, of course credit must be given, I know it can feel bad when all is done is 5mn stuff and no particular precise credit is given.

I believe, since it's a small community, as long as you create something you gotta deal with the fact that people can use it as they want, the only thing lacking right now is thankfulness. A lot of people just grab the DLs and run away with it, wouldn't work in a real community but since we're on the internet who cares uh?

Going back on the artistic stuff, sometimes you don't want to be an artist, you just want to make a species that is slightly different but that may fit the area better maybe? Or a species you like more?
And you can't be acting like you're the only one on earth that would like this species. Then you want to release (speaking of myself right there) and you have some not PD skins (models are usually ok) so you're stuck. And it's definitely OK as it's not a surprise for anyone that some skins must be not PD, but it's a step back in a dying community.
May not make a lot of sense right there, I didn't mean to be aggressive. I will say it again, FULL SKINS and MODELING deserve more recognizance that grabbing a skin and recoloring it, but it's still some work. Don't tell me anyone there isn't happy with all the variants Lgcfm made ? It's not full skin, it's still some hard work.

And yes I make stuff for the unique aspect of my upcoming zoos, but planning on releasing them after that tho.
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magpiealamode
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No good hero is a one-trick phony.

Just a reminder to keep things civil. If things get out of hand staff will have to issue warns.
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Jannick
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Papua merdeka!

I just want to clarify that I don't think it's "wrong" for anyone to edit someone elses work for their own (public) creations, it's just that I don't really like to show off/take credit for other peoples' work myself because I know I can create my own stuff. I fully support building upon other peoples' work because it's a great way to get the hang of designing and broaden the options for others in the community.
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SLGray
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This is one of those debates that should be avoided in this community. It is one about personal decisions. Everyone has different opinions, so it is not really white or black (It is gray).

I really do not see an issue with PU downloads. Soon or later, someone will create a PD download similar to a PU download.
Edited by SLGray, Jun 27 2017, 01:24 PM.
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TheWatcher
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He who Watches from behind the Scenes

Jannick
Jun 27 2017, 01:07 PM
I fully support building upon other peoples' work because it's a great way to get the hang of designing and broaden the options for others in the community.
See this I agree with.

I know it's easy to see someone just put the sentence "Credits to" and edits by me... but I'm sure people don't sit there and go I want more likes than the original or say most of the work was done by me. A sentence is not enough to express how much credit should be given mind you.

And as Jannick said it's great for people to learn how to design and edit. You can see people who started like that get better skills as they practice and then make a Animal from Scratch. They started from the bottom.

You give credit where it is due and 'Designers' need to see that too. If you see your name on the Credits be glad, you helped more upcoming people 'design'.

But alas this discussion was nothing to do with the PU Downloads Topic in general and brought up for no apparent reason (Perhaps your reason is like Jannicks, that's all that was needed. Not an opinion or an attack on those they think "below" themselves). This has been discussed enough so let's dismiss this.
Edited by TheWatcher, Jun 27 2017, 01:38 PM.
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Yukon
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insta: yukons_designs

RGDS
Jun 27 2017, 11:29 AM
But this bullshit about artist, CREATING and not producing. Really dude, no offense, your work is amazing, and all the effort you put into it is even more, but I'm pretty sure if someone could make a good african lioness out of your work, even if it's just some small edits, many people will be happy and will use it, of course credit must be given, I know it can feel bad when all is done is 5mn stuff and no particular precise credit is given.
Ok I am not trying to go on with this rather rude talk, but just to clarify: My comment was meant as a direct response to stargatedalek, not as a general statement. I was just trying to give an impression of the designers site for her, I never actually stated, that this is my iopinion, just something I noticed with some designers. Of course people can and should use my work and improve on it, that's what I want and what is needed to get better, no doubt. But some people are just not aiming for improving themselves (still creating a lot of content, so lack of time is not an argument), and that is a pitty. And in that case, it sometimes gets a bit demotivating.

Ok so let's come to you :P
TheWatcher
 
Speaking of keeping things to themselves, your attack on those just edit model is hardly related to the PU Download topic in general. All I see from your "They are no artists, they are just machines" is that you are stuck up and to be honest incredibly rude. That just shows your true colors that you think they are " lesser" than you. I edit models? Am I lesser than you? Sometimes even editing takes a long time. Some are more easy than others and only take about 10 minutes, but some are actually really difficult. I've spent hours, days even weeks trying to edit models and skins only to still be unsatisfied by the result and start again.

Is it cheating or hijacking? If the model is PD the original creator has probably thought "Hey! This model would be good for something else, with a few adjustments. I will make it PD". Iv'e spoken to a few people and friends of mine that may of misunderstood this but are so disheartened by your thinking less of them. Not everyone is as talented as you Yukon, but not everyone has the time to sit there and learn every button in blender or can make things from scratch.

So for example Lgcfm has a Brown Hyena, made from Striped Hyena from AD. Hendrix made the model. There's no model edits just the skin which was done by Emilie. Lgcfm made a awesome Skin and she worked hard on it. Are you disappointed in her? You realise more than half the community makes edits for new species. But she thought it's good... so I shall share it! If credits are fully given what the problem? Do you want me to kiss your shoes? End of the day the original creator should see credits and even think "Hey that's my mesh! It's awesome they made something new from it!" Not moaning they only changed the skin or made a simple edit, your hard work has paid off. Now it can help others.


This sounds like you were waiting for me saying something for which then you can blame me... I won't even try attacking you back, cause that's nonsense, just a little shoutout to your fellows who I apparently insulted: I can only repeat what I said, it was a direct response to stargatedalek, who brought the whole thing up, I was just amazed by how she wants designers to be, and I didn't want to leave that standing. Again, I think people should defenitely use my work to improve and release cool new stuff if they want, I even made a basic rock and a basick dead tree pack, so people have a base which they can work with and do new stuff out of my work. So just for everybody who got shocked by my comment:
I strongly encourage you to use my work for learning designing and creating new cool mods! Just try always do your best, try to improve and ignore people who bother you with unimportant stuff ;) Have a nice evening.
Edited by Yukon, Jun 27 2017, 02:32 PM.
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Lgcfm
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The Download Lady

*cough* but my brown hyena had alphas added by Tom, so it does have model edits :P

If anyone wants to hear my point of view, there are two issues with PU downloads:

1st: The original download was not made PD by its creator, someone who hasn't been online in such a long time you can't even ask them for permission. So what can you do? Not much, just share it privately since releasing it publicly would be against the original creator's will.

2nd: The original download is PD, however the edits are relatively minor. This is actually pretty complicated because of a number of reasons:

-The original designer might not like it that you just made one of their skins a little darker in 5 min and called it a new animal and got (most) of the credit for it, when they worked days, weeks even months on the original. Even if it's Public Domain, some people might be expecting a little more work on your side.

-On the other hand, many people would be delighted to have that Sumatran tiger that's just a reddish RR tiger, or that Springbok that's just the RR gazelle with a white face. To a designer it might seem lame, but truth is in real life some animal species/subspecies are basically a "lazy work over an existing skin" I'm sorry mother nature and zoobuilders appreciate the accuracy.

-Now the designer editing the skin/model might have different ideas. Some may consider this quick work worth releasing for those zoobuilders wanting accuracy, but others might consider it just a lazy work (not even worth coding as a separate animal), and so they will just share it with their friends. Some might have their own standards for their released work and if something doesn't meet that standard, they don't want to release it. All of these opinions are valid and you can't really force someone to change them.
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The Man in Black
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He took my burden

It is quite hilarious to see this is still a contentious issue everytime I check the forums.
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Yukon
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insta: yukons_designs

You won ^
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Jannick
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Papua merdeka!

Lgcfm
Jun 27 2017, 02:49 PM
or that Springbok that's just the RR gazelle with a white face.
Actually, I reskinned the body aswell because of the Springbok's shorter fur. So there :P
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stargatedalek
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

My (earlier) point was that this entire attitude of "encouraging new designers to improve and learn" isn't necessarily a good thing. Not everyone wants to learn how to code new animals, edit models, or learn/purchase "professional" programs for making skins. A lot of people just want to take a few minutes, maybe an hour or two, and just tweak things to their own liking or make new things to the level they're comfortable with. It's great to encourage people who want to improve, but when what appears like most of the community is focused solely around the idea of getting everyone to improve to the point everything they make is from scratch that puts more pressure on people who don't want to dedicate themselves to this game.

Gonna be frank, this game is old, and it was never designed to handle the kind of graphical mods that are currently being made. Most peoples games are more or less held together with chewing gum and duct tape just so they don't "crash apart at the seams". The only reason this community is still going strong is because the already fairly small genre was saturated with underwhelming Wildlife Park clones (and awful sequels for that matter) which more or less killed it. ZT2 has been on borrowed time for over a decade already, and many people don't want to spend tens of hours just to learn (let alone perfect) the many processes involved in creating mods for this game when the entire community could easily die any month if a better zoo building game was actually made.
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Anton
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King of Cotingas

stargatedalek
Jun 27 2017, 03:19 PM
My (earlier) point was that this entire attitude of "encouraging new designers to improve and learn" isn't necessarily a good thing. Not everyone wants to learn how to code new animals, edit models, or learn/purchase "professional" programs for making skins. A lot of people just want to take a few minutes, maybe an hour or two, and just tweak things to their own liking or make new things to the level they're comfortable with. It's great to encourage people who want to improve, but when what appears like most of the community is focused solely around the idea of getting everyone to improve to the point everything they make is from scratch that puts more pressure on people who don't want to dedicate themselves to this game.

Gonna be frank, this game is old, and it was never designed to handle the kind of graphical mods that are currently being made. Most peoples games are more or less held together with chewing gum and duct tape just so they don't "crash apart at the seams". The only reason this community is still going strong is because the already fairly small genre was saturated with underwhelming Wildlife Park clones (and awful sequels for that matter) which more or less killed it. ZT2 has been on borrowed time for over a decade already, and many people don't want to spend tens of hours just to learn (let alone perfect) the many processes involved in creating mods for this game when the entire community could easily die any month if a better zoo building game was actually made.
So what, then, is your plan of action? Discourage people from becoming better at designing because, oh my, they're hurting the feelings of people who don't want to put effort into anything?

Yes, the game is old, but look around you. There's still plenty of people playing the game and having great fun in doing so. If people want to push the game to it's limits and create content that wasn't possible in our wildest dreams 10 years ago, why not let them?

Also, the lag issue really isn't as bad as you say it is if you put some time into organizing a download folder.

(What exactly did that second paragraph have to do with the topic being discussed, anyways?)
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