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| Why is the community dying?; And what can we do to save it | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 5 2017, 11:16 AM (2,503 Views) | |
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Jul 6 2017, 10:45 AM Post #31 |
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I think blaming it on people just not wanting to learn to design is ignoring the reason they don't want to learn to design. It's time consuming as you stated, but as with any art I honestly think it's mostly because they see great downloads EVERYWHERE and think to themselves, "I could never make that" or "that probably took so long to make". I can tell you I did the same thing before I started doing digital art. It took a lot of attempts and people telling me I was doing well to encourage me. Unfortunately in the ZT2 community, the bar is so high and people want everything to be of a certain quality, people getting into designing for the first time simply can't possibly meet their expectations. People don't want animals that blend in with the vanilla animals anymore. They want animals that blend in with the much more realistic downloads we see everywhere, and I'm sure anyone will tell you it takes much longer to make a realistic looking rodent than it does a vanilla-style whale. Most art-forms, even modding for other games sometimes, allow people to design with any style they want, but no one praises people for making something unless it's perfectly realistic, meaning people end up not enjoying designing when they aren't at that skill level because they don't get praise for it. |
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| Denomon3144 | Jul 6 2017, 12:19 PM Post #32 |
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Pick a god and pray!
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I'm not complaining. Even if I were, I'm a designer myself so it's not as if I'm someone who is only here for downloads & doesn't understand the process. I don't release most of what I make, but I still release some things. I'm under the mindset that a pretty skin and/or model doesn't matter if it doesn't have all of the game's animal features. I don't want to push this far, though, as I doubt this can be considered on-topic. ![]() I suppose the community is dying now that I've read others' posts, but the death can likely be stopped. Activity fluctuates, and the best way to revive the community's activity would be to recruit more people onto our forums. The YouTube community is growing, so we could try to recruit new players through YouTube. Edited by Denomon3144, Jul 6 2017, 12:20 PM.
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| zerosvalmont | Jul 6 2017, 12:27 PM Post #33 |
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Well... here we go The good thing is that people seem to be reacting to this topic, which means that at least someone still care. The bad news is that except for a couple of people who have done self-criticism, others blame everyone but themselves. I will comment on some topics that have been discussed here Limitations of the game: If there was something better than zt2 this conversation or this forum itself would not exist, we can not talk about making a new game when half of the designers are not able to finish half of our projects for lack of time, interest or knowledge, although obviously I understand the frustration that entails there are many things that can be done and still not done. Graphically the game may be very limited, but as far as code has much to explore, lately have appeared details such as wet skins, molt behavoir, hybrids... Investigating the code a little can be seen many more details that could be used to make animals with much more realistic behaviors. The coders have almost disappeared and I think it's the new horizon to explore On the other hand there is the theme of animations, So far only one person has made complete sets of animations and also gave us the knowledge and resources to make them, I have to admit that it is probably the most tedious job that exists and can be extremely frustrating but still hard to believe that almost no one else has been encouraged to try, there are sets of animations that could be used for an endless species, giving much life to the newest designers. And ultimately say that very little time ago to think about new animations or bfb models was little less than crazy, it is clear that HENDRIX has only one, but I am sure there is a lot of talent hidden waiting for the right motivation. Bar too high: This is a very real problem, many designers start to design with a very low level of knowledge and in their topics only collect criticism or at best no comment. On the other hand the new designers want to design like ... designer x without taking into account that it requires years of practice and sacrifice, failed experiments and swallow a lot of critcism. So they end up thinking ... I better wait for someone else do it The design teams have also suffered a lot this increase of exigency, I have worked with designers without any experience in some packs, trying to teach the little that I myself knew. I personally am very lazy, So, more they learn to do, less I will have to do. When talent doesn't overwhelm the desire can play in your favor, if you are experienced designers, use the novices eager to learn, teach them to do things half as well as you and you will save a lot of time, in exchange for introducing a new designer in the community. Laziness of new designers: The previous paragraph can not serve as an excuse, although you do not have the expected level dare to do things, forget about gross recolors and watch tutorials, they exist, they are free and anyone can understand them. And above all, fun. Who design for applause is well screwed, start designing what you like and what you're good, May not everyone be able to make a "nobodyknowssaur" With 452 skewers on the head and hip at an exact angle of 47.2º But surely you can do something simpler like... sharks? ![]() Publish it, release it and take into account only those criticisms that really help you improve, the rest, all garbage. Lack of time: I have 30 years, work, girlfriend, daily obligations and low energy and I still design from time to time, I have released 4 sharks in a month, Probably not superultramegawonderfulrealistic but... what the hell? I do not do it for applause, who likes... enjoy them and who doesn't... try to do better and if you get it I will applaud you. Lack of time is a lie if you really want to design. Selfishness in designers: I do not even want to think how many people are able to design and not share it, many zoobuilders make specific posters for their zoos, rocks, plants etc... and never released... If you make a wonderful enclosure of rhinos with signs, and plants, and unique craps, why you do not release it like a pack called "pack of rhinoceroses craps"?, winner of the contest blah blah, It's just an idea. Bad management of forums: As ex-administrator of a forum I have to say that if people do not collaborate little can be done, Contest without contestants is very depressing, and if by chance someone is presented with some experience, all others do not dare to enter Little more to say, I'm sure the staff of this forum are the first demotivated. And with this I think it's all for now, this will be long to read but longer is to write in a language that is not mine, if I can think of something else I will return |
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| Imperator Furiosa | Jul 6 2017, 01:32 PM Post #34 |
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Chaos Theory
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I'm sorry but in my opinion I don't think that's possible. The community has been on a downward slump for years now and there have been may attempts to stop that. It's an old game and there's little incentive for new people to join the forums unless they're nostalgic players. We can try broadening the focus of the forum but then there are other forums and websites dedicated to animals and zoos and paleontology, people would probably look to sites focused specifically on what they're looking for rather than a site where the main topic is ZT2. And if new people join they're probably more interested in downloads than discussing things, and really there's no way to convince people like that to stick around.
I've already touched on why I don't think YouTube will bring in new players but I'll go more in-depth. Most Zoo Tycoon YouTubers have around 500-800 subscribers, with a few exceptions who have a few thousand subs. Say they average a few hundred views per video. That's not bad for smaller channels, but compared to Minecraft, Gary's Mod, and Overwatch YouTubers that's a very small number of views. With most channels the views largely come from people who are already subscribed and new people who are led there through suggested videos. With small channels the people who come in from suggested videos are also most likely going to be from smaller channels, so its hard to bring in new people from that. The only "big name" YouTuber who I know plays ZT2 is Seri! Pixel Biologist!, who has about 171k subscribers. I believe the reason for that is because Seri plays several other games in addition to ZT2, including The Sims, Spore, and Minecraft. All three of those games have larger communities than ZT2 so more people will find her channel through those games. People generally have a set idea of what videos they like to watch and ones they aren't interested in, so it can be hard to get people to watch if they've already decided they aren't interested. And even if people watch those videos they may not be interested in actually playing the game. You may get a few people interested in playing here and there but a lot of people watch Let's Plays for the commentary rather than the game itself. |
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| the dark phoenix | Jul 6 2017, 01:46 PM Post #35 |
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King of wonderlandia
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I haven't been able to install ZT2 to my computer currently so I haven't been looking around for DLs or watching development of DLs. Also, some groups disbanded, some good designers left because of idiots(IDK if I am in fault too but if so I am to the highest degree in need to apologize and thus I do.), some people have just gone dark without warning, and others have amazing updates but are not frequent. Lots of great designers and teams meant the place was popping and there was always something amazing to see... now it is rare to get that beautiful ZT2 "fix". But we have said the thing was dying before... and we're still here. So this may just be a dry spot in a still long living game. |
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| Iben | Jul 6 2017, 01:56 PM Post #36 |
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!
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Thank you for saying that. Whenever someone mentions that ZT is limited, I feel like they always talk about textures/models/anims. The vast amount of things you can do with coding is mindbogglingly immense, and it pains me so much to see that people ignore that part of the game... |
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| dycki1231 | Jul 6 2017, 02:00 PM Post #37 |
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To be fair, as a game started from 2007 and without official update, this post heading should change to why the community still survived. If you say the community is dying, I would say it is just a natural decay. And the solution purposed are all already tried. To pass the winter of zt2 community, what we can do would just fallen the leaves and retain the nutrients in the trunk. And after that winter, I think the best way to do is to turn zt2 community into some graduated old classmate group. |
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| zerosvalmont | Jul 6 2017, 02:02 PM Post #38 |
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Once you tried to convince me and all of the great potential of behavior coding and I did not listen to you... I can only apologize, Lately I have discovered that although people play only to take a couple of photos, the design focused on realistic behavior is one of the most fun things to do. Maybe for consumers is stupid but for the designer is very gratifying and honestly I think it is a very little explored part of the design and we can still make much of it. |
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| Jntg4 | Jul 6 2017, 11:55 PM Post #39 |
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Old game, no new official content or sequels, nobody growing up on it, far less new downloads than in past, retiring designers |
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| Komodo | Jul 7 2017, 01:08 AM Post #40 |
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Varanus komodoensis
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Most people have already said it before me. ZT2 is very old, even for game standards, and with no more official expansion packs or true sequels, interest from casual gamers quickly fades. I think little can be done on the subject of attracting new players or diversifying ZT2 forums and websites. TRT is doing fine as a sort of watering hole for what is left of the community. Sadly, with our aging fandom and no "generational relief" we probably won't have to think too much in the long run. Coding might be a possible answer for those still looking for innovation. Though graphic quality might have reached its peak, and few remaining modders seem to be willing to try new animation sets, there's still a lot that can be done when talking about coding, the most under-appreciated part of designing. As a personal note, I never had an excessive amount of downloaded content in my game, the main reason being that I usually played regularly to build and manage fully-functional zoos instead of making everything pretty for a S&T, and I tried to make the most of BF's original gameplay. The vanilla coding is much more dynamic than it gets credit for, and for me it was a huge pleasure to watch diverse interactions and behaviors ingame that a lot of people didn't even notice. That was a reason I was thankful of the little tricks like hybrids, seasonal skins, etc. and all of those designers that valued substance above style. And makes me a bit regretful of not actively trying to learn new things, too. The ZT2 fandom/community might not be everlasting, but I think not everything is lost, and users still can contribute to keep it alive instead of agonizing. Supporting novice designers and zoo-builders would be a nice way to start. Greetings! |
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| Yukon | Jul 7 2017, 11:21 AM Post #41 |
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insta: yukons_designs
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Being a very visual person, I didn't want to mention coding, because I have zero knowledge about that. About animation, this game has similar limitations, though. I talked about that with HENDRIX a lot, and having to animate every single movement and that for a very small cycle is just tedious and super frustrating, compared to what is possible nowadays. That was one of the reasons that I decided to not do the huge animation project that I once had and even did several meshes for. About coding, I would like to have a basic tutorial about that stuff that explains the fundamentals, what different stuff is doing and especially why. COding for me still is very cloudy, because I don't get the idea behind it, what it is all about, all I can do is recoding. I admit though, that I didn't really try learning it, because I find a line of words not that interesting to be honest
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| Lgcfm | Jul 7 2017, 11:52 AM Post #42 |
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The Download Lady
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Everyone's already talked about the main aspects so I'll mention something else. I feel we are getting a bit outdated by using zetaboards, nowadays everything is on facebook, twitter, tumblr, youtube, maybe even instagram or reddit, stuff like that. I'm not much into social media myself (I don't even use facebook) but I can't ignore its importance. I think the new discord channel(s) were a great idea, but not sure how active they are (I haven't really used them myself). It's nice to have something more "casual" than a board where people can just chat and talk about random stuff without it being considered spam, it could also be a great way to help new designers if it's used well (e.g. someone can post a sequence of pics of how their work is going and people can comment and give advice on it: here's a good ref pic, try using this texture, there's a seam here, you coult try making it lighter, I could edit X for you etc.). I know there are some groups at TRT and skype channels etc, but I mean something more public where anyone can join and start chatting. On a different note, regarding coding it's very different from skinning (which are the only two things I can do). I admit it's not for everyone, but when you can manage to do something it feels great. I personally have a love-hate relationship with it. I spent weeks working on my Arctic fox molting behavior - I ended up even having nightmares about coding, and I wish I was joking about that. And I didn't even do that much as Hendrix had already made the base coding. Furthermore it's harder to test since you have to spend a long time ingame checking that everything works, on the other hand for meshing and skinning you can easily see how they look. I really wanted to code baby variants too but it never worked even when I did everything as instructed and it's very frustrating when you have no idea what's wrong, especially because that kind of coding takes very long to test. Also it's hard to teach/learn coding because to make a new behavior you need to actually come up with a way to code it, that's the hard part. Once you have an idea of how to do it all that's left is perfecting it. |
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| Iben | Jul 7 2017, 11:53 AM Post #43 |
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!
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Yeah, I'm aware that animations are quite frustrating, believe me, I've seen Ben working on it and it sounded like it was extremely frustrating ![]() It's kinda problem that most people don't care about a line of words, which of course has resulted in tons of basic and not really useable stuff out there. It's a shame, given the game's potential. I actually wrote down a start of the fundamentals a while back right here, but most people never bothered to read it... So yeah But then again, as mentioned here, some people are even too lazy ( and yeah I consider that lazy, I'm sorry ) to add extremely easy but essential stuff like lang-files; so I'm not surprised by the lack of interest.
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| Turacin | Jul 7 2017, 01:47 PM Post #44 |
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I am almost certain that none of the members above, and that none of the members who will later view this post, know me or even know of me, which actually segues nicely into my first point; the vast majority of the members of both TRT and the broader ZT2 community are lurkers. Whilst I created an account here in 2014, I have involved myself in the ZT2 community since 2012. Of course, I'm not a particularly senior member of the community, but having kicked about for the past five years I feel my observations could be of some worth. And it boils down to this - the members of the ZT2 community number in the thousands - TRT has over 8000 members. But of those thousand, there are perhaps a couple hundred members who actively participate in the comings and goings of the forum. There is almost a community within the community. They are, at the least, well-acquainted with one another, or are good friends, and as such participating in the community can be fairly intimidating as an outsider to that nucleus of members. Now, it is important to note that I do not think said members are to blame for this effect or have done something wrong; there are of course many people within the community that try their hardest to be welcoming, and the overall atmosphere is amiable (though of course that varies at times). But humans are tribalistic by nature, and outsiders to a group will always be a little chary, even if acting anonymously on the internet. We cannot escape our biology, after all. What I'm trying to say, in very long-winded fashion, is that "recruiting" members is not the issue, it is attracting participation in forum activities that would have to be solved, and I fear that it simply cannot, at least not on a large scale. If even 1/8th of the members we have posted regularly - not even necessarily to share their own content, just to interact with other people - then the lifespan of this community would be prolonged significantly. I can't say I know how to achieve that, though. Zero, Iben and Komodo, you all hit upon what is a very significant issue with the community as a whole, in my opinion at least. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but as far as I can tell coding is more difficult relative to other aspects of game design; or at the very least, there is definitely a perceived gulf in difficulty. Moreover, coding is (seemingly) more time-consuming as well. The lack of innovative coding in the ZT2 modding community can in part be chalked up to that, whether it be through laziness on the part of designers or a simple lack of time or interest. Personally, I know that whenever I've dabbled in designing on and off over the past few years, coding has always been the most daunting task (although I must confess I've never gotten beyond the modelling stage, but that's a personal issue) and I simply would not know where to begin. It's a shame, because I have so many ideas about coding my designs, but I simply don't have the requisite knowledge to have any idea whether or not they're feasible, and if they are, how to go about coding them; I imagine a lot of other people are in the same predicament as me. I think many people, myself included, don't have the time; when I do have free time, there are a number of things that I find myself vastly more interested in than coding (as well as the fact that my interest in ZT2 itself waxes and wanes). But I think there is another aspect which was briefly touched upon in previous posts, which is that simply put, there is not great demand for innovative coding. As others have stated beforehand, the ZT2 community overall uses the game almost as software for rendering 3D scenes - an inordinate amount of time is spent designing infrastructure, exhibits, foliage combinations etc. and arranging them when building a zoo. And usually, these constructions are simply deleted once the images have been captured. Now, I don't know which is causal, but there is nearly certainly an underlying correlation with the, I guess you could call it the metagame, and the drive towards photo-realism over the past few years. I can't quite remember who wrote it, but the rare rhinestones on cheap jeans analogy is quite apt. I have always celebrated the graphical progress the modding community has made with this game, but the graphical realism was always simply accentuating what was intended to be a simulation of zoo management. As others have said, the game's mechanics are fair shade more advanced than people give them credit for, but they've been left in the dust in lieu of realistic visuals (which only exacerbates the negative view of the gameplay, ai etc.). So to reiterate, the demand is not there, so there is little supply. To link that back to what I stated previously about the difficulty and the protracted nature of coding; coding often seems to take longer than modelling and skinning and as such (and once again) seems to exacerbate the aforementioned issues in supply and demand. Without wishing to cause controversy, there's a fairly prominent example of the problem I'm about to elaborate on. I know the design team I have in mind sought to improve each of their mods behind the scenes, but as each new model and skin were shown, releases remained few and far between. I won't assume that coding was the sole reason for this delay, as I imagine real life interfered a fair amount too, but it's fairly likely it played a large part simply because they wanted to implement coding that was highly advanced within ZT2. Of course, many people's attitudes grew more and more impatient (and, arguably, disrespectful) as time wore on, and exemplify the attitude many people take to the game itself. They didn't particularly care about the coding and therefore the gameplay, but they greatly valued the realistic and high-quality aesthetics of the mods, and it seems probable that this disproportionate value system meant they couldn't particularly understand why mods weren't released as frequently as skins and models were presented. I won't pretend I know all of the details that lead to the dissolution of this design team, and if I am mistaken then correct me, but my impression is that the modders grew frustrated at the attitude people had towards their work and that this formed a good portion of the cause behind it's end. However, while many modders become tired of the greater demand for realistic appearance, I think that it also causes those who build zoos to tire of playing the game. A lot of people simply grow bored of constructing zoos, and I think it is precisely because of the attitude towards the game outlined above. There are only so many times one can place down the same tree... Often people complain that there is simply not much to do in the game, but that's simply because people no longer play ZT2 as it was intended; a zoo management simulation. Of course, it is not 100% realistic, but I don't think every intricacy of zoo management in reality can be properly translated into digital form, or would come at the expense of interesting gameplay. But the larger problem is of course that people haven't wanted a more realistic simulation, so they haven't gotten it. All of this is to say, I think innovation in coding could renew interest in designing and gameplay itself, and in turn would perhaps spark a slight increase in activity in this forum and the community as a whole. Anyway, hopefully this post marks an increase in activity from myself, and I might get to know some of you better, although it will be during the death throes of the community haha. But my interest in ZT2 will never fully wane, so as long as there are forums I will be there, probably lurking. (Edit: Congrats if anyone actually read all of that, about 3 new comments were posted whilst I was typing lol) Edited by Turacin, Jul 7 2017, 02:00 PM.
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| Isaac | Aug 23 2017, 02:47 PM Post #45 |
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I have been a member of the community since ZT2: Volcano was a thing and even before that, Caldera Unlimited even... if anyone remembers that. I purchased the game as a 9 year old kid back in 2004 and it was some of the most fun I had growing up. As I grew up, I continued to play the game. Some years delving deep back into it, especially when Radical Remake was announced. Some years I played more than others. I'm now in my early 20's, and revisit the game every now and then. I genuinely wish that more would of stuck it through and stuck around. I witnessed many amazing designers leave because of ridiculous drama. I've seen some of the most incredible creations ever made for a game come to life in front of my eyes, and I've seen amazing designers pass away unexpectedly, which is truly heartbreaking. I remember the community getting together to get through the hard times so we could get to the good times, and those are the memories I will cherish forever. October 17th, 2007 was when EA was released, the last major expansion for the game. That was nearly 10 years ago. The discovery and ability to add new animations, etc. to the game came too late, in my own opinion. By that time many of us had left. Many of us had grown up. There are some of us that have families and careers that prevent us from getting on the computer when we want to. S/o to all of those who stuck with the game from the very start, and the ones just discovering the community now! I would love if we could try to sustain the legacy of this great game. |
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