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Keep Billy the Elephant at LA Zoo; sign the petition
Topic Started: Feb 1 2018, 11:05 PM (613 Views)
Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

https://www.change.org/p/let-billy-the-elephant-stay-at-the-la-zoo

Billy is an elephant at the Los Angeles zoo. Animal activists want him seized and sent to a sanctuary and removed from the breeding population. If this occurs, the LA zoo will lose AZA accreditation and the ability to participate in endangered species breeding programs. It would also set a precedent that could bring an end to zoos and captive-breeding conservation as we know it because these activists are against the captivity of all animals - even endangered species we may lose in the wild.

For more information on why LA zoo losing Billy is a very bad thing, follow the link below to a blogger who explains the issues very well.

http://blog.whyanimalsdothething.com/post/170004332412/billy-the-elephants-life-at-the-la-zoo-will-soon
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HarryD28
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Lover of the Legless

Signed.

This is really important to me, being an LA resident. I have followed this for some time. Very upsetting. I have gone to several of their "protests" in an effort to counter it with knowledge and intelligence, but the dumb hippies never showed up.

Please sign this, and please do whatever you can to fight intellectually vapid individuals from existing...
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Consultant
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I signed and linked the site to about 50 people. Even if Billy get's removed, LA Zoo shouldn't have to lose their AZA accreditation for it.
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Panthera-Onca
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Hi!

Billy has to stay! I saw him when I went to LA a few years ago and I signed the petition!
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Jenna
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I've signed it, I don't see anything wrong with his home. His home is awsome I think they are mad.
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Megraptor
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Can we talk about animal rights, and how they seem to be winning the public over?

Seriously, it seems like, at least on Facebook, they are getting more and more people on their side. Why is this? And how can this be combated? Are there any merits to what they have to say, or is it all emotional outrage?

It seems like this is a near impossible thing to do. The animal rights side has some big names backing them, and they use emotional and psychology to win people over. I see this in the environmental field too, with things like GMOs and nuclear energy- which are other topics I'm passionate about. it's quite sad really. I've tried to get some of the science skeptics to help out, but when they post stuff, they tend to get a lot of angry people. Especially if it's marine mammals...

It's... really disheartening to see this...
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

It is just another extension of the growing anti-science sentiment taking over US politics lately, and it is only going to worsen.
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Megraptor
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Sheather
Feb 12 2018, 04:52 PM
It is just another extension of the growing anti-science sentiment taking over US politics lately, and it is only going to worsen.
So people here would consider this an anti-science move? Because I've been trying to get some prominent science skeptics to cover zoos and also hunting, which I know both are very controversial topics. I think they are "too controversial" or something though because no one seems to want to. It's kinda pushed me to look into doing it myself. Not just those topics, but all of the anti-science stuff.

I don't know, it seems like the science topics are getting more popular, but maybe it's just because I'm surrounding myself with science skeptics and I don't get to see what the rest of the world says.
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Fireplume
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Snok Snok Snerson

They're both 100% anti-science movements lol, even downright zoologists/ecologists etc. agree with that.
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magpiealamode
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No good hero is a one-trick phony.

I'm cautious about calling things "100% anti-science," while they do definitely ignore crucial facts, anti-cappers are not actively trying to halt the progress of discovery (at least, not all of them) as much as end what they think is a cruel practice. And I don't think "science" is the cure to those beliefs, I think understanding zoos and their goals is more likely to help. If anything, science could actually give them ammunition--I recently read a paper about stereotyping in captive chimpanzees and it was miserable. One look would be enough to gain anticap some new converts. Not saying I'm one, though.
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Fireplume
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Snok Snok Snerson

I honestly call malarkey on them not being anti-science. They are actively trying to cease an institution that directly inspires young minds to better wildlife/the natural world, and if that's not enough, all accredited zoos and a crapton of non-accredited facilities too participate in in-situ conservation for many species across the world, including a lot that don't fall into place as charismatic megafauna (meaning it's questionable if they'd have any focus groups otherwise).
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Danny
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They're antiscience in the sense that they pick and choose the science they wish to accept. There are some psychological and animal behavioural studies which demonstrate that a number of particularly social or K-selected animals can be under a lot of stress in captive conditions. However, they use slogans like 'putting the con in conservation' and try to claim that zoos have no conservation benefit, and they seem to ignore the fact that animals almost always live longer, healthier lives in captivity. Not to mention that animals in the wild are often in very stressful conditions due to the lack of protection. I don't know why these people always treat the wild as some perfect place where every animal desires to be. Ignoring or denying the vast amount of science, while pretending your views have scientific and moral backing and using emotional manipulation to convince people that something necessary for maintaining biodiversity is a bad thing, is certainly antiscientific.
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Megraptor
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Fireplume
 
They're both 100% anti-science movements lol, even downright zoologists/ecologists etc. agree with that.


In regards to hunting and zoos? Because the two communities don't get along all that well. It's probably more harmful to conservation in the long run because these are two groups that could really help conservation if they worked together, but really don't have an interest in it.

I follow communities on Facebook, and when the zoo pages post some trophy hunting thing, the comments are always negative and disparaging. I've even gotten contacted by an admin of a large zoo page on Facebook and was told that they don't believe hunting does enough for conservation to outweigh the cons. I can dig of the message if you are interested.

Likewise, I'm in involved in a hunting/conservation group that has conservation scientists and game ranchers in it, and I asked how they felt about zoos in general and cetaceans in captivity. The comments were pretty negative to meh. Some of the people said that they felt that animals couldn't show their natural behaviors, and are a shadow of what a wild animal is. The comments that tackled cetacean captivity echoed this sentiment, and repeating things like "orcas can swim 75 miles a day" and "orcas have different dialects and can't understand each other, so putting them together is like putting two people with different languages together".

magpiealamode
 
If anything, science could actually give them ammunition--I recently read a paper about stereotyping in captive chimpanzees and it was miserable. One look would be enough to gain anticap some new converts. Not saying I'm one, though.


That paper sounds fascinating! Is it published? Is there any way that I could read it?

Also, about the rest of comment. I kind of agree. This is an ethical and scientific debate. If it was a science debate, it would be so much easier. Ethics are hard and not something I like to debate, because everyone has their own ethics, and there is little you can do to convince people away from them.

One thing is for sure, yelling at them and calling them names does nothing, and I see this on this happening on the Facebook pro-SeaWorld community. I don't exactly disagree with SeaWorld, but some of the people who comment are rude to anti-cap people, and it doesn't do anything to change anyone's minds. It's made me distance myself from the SeaWorld community, even though I think SeaWorld is an important zoological facility. This community also takes on other captivity issues, like this one, and also Nosey the elephant, and they can be condescending about those issues too...


Danny
 
However, they use slogans like 'putting the con in conservation' and try to claim that zoos have no conservation benefit,


Like The Dodo, and how it gets widely shared across social media? Ugh, that site. But also PETA, and to an extent, HSUS, but HSUS seems much more... quiet but insidious than the other two.

I'm always looking for more information on "controversial" captive species, like cetaceans, apes, and elephants. Are they doing okay in captivity? Or are there issues? Are they issues we could solve through research, technology and different management and care procedures? Or are they never going to do well in captivity, and we should just give up? I don't know, and it seems that there isn't a ton of research out there, especially for cetaceans.
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