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Is the Zoo Tycoon 2 Community Dead?
Topic Started: Jun 2 2018, 02:42 PM (2,821 Views)
SLGray
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Just think about how many times this kind of topic has been started on many different forums and, notice that the community is still here.
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HENDRIX
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-retired-

Ahh, well, a classic topic. I fully agree with MrGorsh - if you remember the buzz from NorthernSkies' days, there's just a tiny fraction left now.

As to Iben - definitely. And it's not just me.* Of course, there are still people who hammer out visually superb animals now and then, AJ and Nessich spring to mind, but the only time in years when I was really amazed by new objects was Lucoshi's recent building set. Few are still willing to think outside the box and push the boundaries, try stuff, experiment (kudos to LilyValley!). For most people, it is apparently far too comfortable to rest on the laurels of days gone by.
Carnivores and JPOG appear to be more alive because in these franchises, designers acknowledge the limitations of their respective games but create new and exciting content anyway.
Another core problem from my point of view: modding ZT2 is too easy and you don't need a lot of game developing experience to make modifications, so many people ended up releasing stuff that they had perhaps, for the benefit of the game, better not put out. There was no effective quality control or centralized focus on optimization, so the average modded ZT2 has become so buggy and laggy as to be unplayable. Modded ZT2 may look attractive at first glance ("wow such RR style"), but in the long run that is not really something that binds newcomers ("my guests are so stupid"). Let's face it: many people are only still interested in ZT2 downloads for the sake of collecting them, because it was so exciting to get new downloads back in the 'good old days'.


*On that note, I should like to point out that I am around, and those who need to contact me can contact me. For those who have not noticed, my blender scripts were massively improved a few weeks ago. I am no regularly longer designing, but as others have mentioned, a fan-cult-like following of single designers or groups does not make a gaming or modding community.
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Arrancon
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Adding my two cents, as someone who's been around a long while.

Yes, the community is slowly becoming inactive more and more each year. But even in its lower states I still keep playing the game even if I don't show my creations off. As long as there are people still out there playing, they'll find each other online and a community (no matter how small) will exist.
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JohnVM
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I've been in this community for fifteen years. It's been like this before. Many many times.

The games were already "old" before many of the active members here ever joined the community - and the original Zoo Tycoon is a few years older and still has a small but tight-knit and active community that continues to share screenshots and produce content. In fact, they're still making small but careful breakthroughs for a game that they've just about figured out. Go check out Zoo Tek Phoenix sometime.

Quote:
 
Carnivores and JPOG appear to be more alive because in these franchises, designers acknowledge the limitations of their respective games but create new and exciting content anyway.

I really want to spotlight this, because HENDRIX, as usual, isn't right on the mark. These comparisons are ridiculous. The Carnivores community is very, very small - that's not to say their fans aren't passionate, active, nor continuing to produce content and make breakthroughs, but their numbers are very small. The Jurassic Park: Operation Genesis community has also taken some colossal hits with Modding Genesis and JPL gone - there are again, only a few skilled modders propping up a community that is, in fact, fairly small... in addition, their game blurs it's community a lot with the broader Jurassic Park fanbase.

The reason why many see a lack of new content is a problem larger than any one designer or group, which is simply that the bar has been raised pretty high over the last several years. There was a time when new biomes were impossible and all animals had to use existing animations and models - which meant your strongest bet for a modern bird or a dinosaur would be a recolored secretary bird. A project like that takes... a couple of hours really. It's easy to work like that and have a new release a week, and that's what kept the community active for years before the bar started to be raised by more realistic and time-consuming projects. The artistry involved in designing new skins, models and animations in Blender takes a lot of time and skill many fans don't have - so you have far fewer people producing content, while anyone who can't reach that standard tends to feel discouraged. This also reduces the total output - quality over quantity for sure, but better work less often can give the appearance of less activity.

Back to the central point though - to me, saying the community is 'dying' or 'dead' is to say that in a few months or years, nobody is going to care about Zoo Tycoon anymore and no new content will be produced. That's silly. The community is actually a lot bigger than what any of us here individually feel. Not that I was terribly useful to begin with, but I've been inactive for years and that hasn't stopped any of you from continuing to produce great content without me - and inactive sites often gambled on their continuing popularity in the past, only to suddenly be usurped by new sites that attracted new people. Many people make the mistake of thinking that one site being inactive, or their personal interest declining, spells a trend. Heaven recalls when I treated the ZTV-ZTH axis as the center of our fandom!

The community will survive if The Round Table disappeared and most of its members left, because someone else will discover these games and love them enough to build a community around them. It might not be even as active as we are now, but as long as someone carries that torch, this community will live.
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NitroTechZT2
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Machinimator

The community may be slightly die but it will come back for sure, no game has offered this much freedom for customization and easy modding. This is why ZT2 Became the platform for a machinima community and why back in the day, they were quite big.

The sad thing is, with the machinima community gone, we've lost many of the absolutely crazy ideas like Zombies, aliens and the many other crazy creepy creations that were released by the folks who created them.

The part of the community who turned a game about making a zoo and managing it into the platform for creating movies about alien invasions, wars and paranormal activity!

It's disappointing but maybe one day it will come back.

I only hope it will..
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Tyranachu
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Nerdasaurus

Learning to design isn't exactly a quick process, either. It took me two years to learn the basics, and I haven't even moved to bfb models yet. Truth is, people lose interest/become too busy by the time they actually have the potential to innovate.
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Makaio
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JohnVM
Jun 16 2018, 09:35 PM
The reason why many see a lack of new content is a problem larger than any one designer or group, which is simply that the bar has been raised pretty high over the last several years. There was a time when new biomes were impossible and all animals had to use existing animations and models - which meant your strongest bet for a modern bird or a dinosaur would be a recolored secretary bird. A project like that takes... a couple of hours really. It's easy to work like that and have a new release a week, and that's what kept the community active for years before the bar started to be raised by more realistic and time-consuming projects. The artistry involved in designing new skins, models and animations in Blender takes a lot of time and skill many fans don't have - so you have far fewer people producing content, while anyone who can't reach that standard tends to feel discouraged. This also reduces the total output - quality over quantity for sure, but better work less often can give the appearance of less activity.
When I read this, I just had to spotlight it and add on to it, because I think that this very accurately describes my own situation, and I would imagine, other people's as well.

I had a brief spurt of "designing" activity back in 2013. I put that in quotes because I only worked on a few small projects that took relatively little time, all in just a span of like two months. I simply recolored a few original game skins (and didn't do a very good job, admittedly), I quickly recoded an existing animal in just minutes, and out came a new animal for the game! Nothing impressive, for sure, as other people had been doing it for years, but still very personally rewarding when you first begin and when you feel like you have the process down.

However, I'm someone who simply doesn't have the time, or the desire, really, to learn how to do all the sorts of things that are necessary to create realistic animals that are up to today's standards, such as modeling from scratch, weight painting, custom animations, high quality skins that look almost photorealistic, advanced coding with new behaviors, etc. I would imagine other people are in a similar boat, as well. That really does have the effect of excluding people who can't meet those standards, either due to a lack of time, lack of interest, or even in my case, a complete lack of artistic ability. All three of those play a factor for me.

There's only so much a person like me can contribute here. I'm now a full time university student. While I just got Zoo Tycoon 2 working again, and I still play it occasionally and still enjoy it, it's simply impossible for me to commit to contributing much of anything that anyone here would be remotely interested in. But regardless, I still stick around, I still jump into discussions from time to time, I still try to help out newer members where I can, and I still greatly appreciate all the incredible work that you designers do.

Thank you for your comments, JVM. I think you nailed it.
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Lucoshi
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For me personally, Zoo Tycoon is dying. My enjoyment in playing the game is disappearing.
This game is 14 years old, and I've played it since day one. I loved building zoos and as soon as I found out there was a modding community, I was hooked on that as well. In the old days of Zoo Tycoon Wereld and ZTSF and other dutch communities I'd be buzzing at the sight of a serval remake made out of a Fennec fox; at the time it was groundbreaking stuff, everything was, because it was exciting and new; it was something we hadn't seen in the game before. Then we got more realistic looking skins, and models, and eventually we have come to the point of making our own animations and really dissecting the ai.
And all of those things are amazing, and as has been mentioned before; the bar has been raised to such a standard that most designers can't compete, and don't have/want to have the time available to "compete".

But for me the main thing with ZT2 at the moment is that it has become severally outdated. Especially since the release of Planet Coaster and recently also Jurassic World Evolution, it shows what is possible for a game like this, and after returning to ZT2 you notice some glaring issues. The lack of a decent lighting system sucks, the game runs horribly because it wasn't built for all of the highly detailed stuff we have nowadays, and a more flexible camera would be great as well.

I personally just love the building part of Zoo Tycoon, I don't really care about the animals themselves anymore. In fact, I don't even place animals in my zoos anymore, I just build the exhibits and the decoration around it; the park itself. But the problem with this is that the building system of Zoo Tycoon doesn't lend itself to that. Being able to move stuff along the z-axis would open up so many opportunities, as would the addition of curves like in Jurassic World Evolution.

I don't really know where I'm going with this rant, but I think the best example is what happened to roofs in Planet Coaster. When the game just came out, it had a couple of roof pieces available. However, after only a week those bright blue pieces were already becoming repetitive, and every build started to look similar and boring, because they used the exact same roofs. People started experimenting with building their own roofs out of wooden posts and stone pieces, which resulted in more unique roofs. When that became boring people started branching out onto creating more complex roofs; chinese style stuff for example, and everyone loved it.
These fresh elements are what makes a game like this enjoyable, for me.

People in our community create beautiful zoos, they really do. People like TheYeti, Wes, and Mario (there are many more of course) come to mind as people who really try pushing the limits of the game, and experiment with building things no one has ever seen before.
And that is where my main issue finds itself, I think; seeing yet another zoo using the Taronga Building set, or seeing the same rocks used in the top three topics of the show&tell subfora.
Of course, the Taronga Set is something amazing, and something which has helped elevate the game a ton in terms of creative possibilities and I can't thank Sophie enough for that, but for me they (and basically all building sets, maybe even just all objects in general) have sort of become the blue roofs Planet Coaster used to have.
I need something fresh in order to enjoy this game again.

Which is why I tried making my own building set, with the eaves and such, just to get something fresh and new into the game, and I'm glad people like it, and would love to see people actually using it.

It could very well be that I'm just not enjoying the game anymore, and that these reasons are only applicable to me and not the anyone else, but I'm just trying to put my thoughts into words to add to the discussion.


I just want a new zoo game, and I think we really need it. We need a game with a better lighting engine, a more flexible camera, more building options (off-grid rotation and z-axis movement), bigger maps, and more things which can't be done in Zoo Tycoon 2.
This game is old, it is really really old and it is outdated as hell. Mods can only take us so far.

Planet Coaster and Jurassic World Evolution give me hope for the revival of the park building genre and I pray that Frontier will decide to make a zoo building game which we, in my personal opinion, desperately need.

/rant
Edited by Lucoshi, Jun 18 2018, 04:15 PM.
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Dwarfbomb
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Darn you guys are depressing lol. (Lucoshi, I take issue with my architecture not being mentioned specifically :P lol jk). I would just like to note I find it shocking how many comments that this topic has received for a supposedly dead game walking. And if a new zoo game came out I don't think i would play it, because this game has all the mods. Think of all the effort it would take to get any zoo building game to the level this one is at. A LOT. I do recognize this isn't a huge community, however. But I highly doubt the creation of another zoo building game that even remotely reaches the level of complexity of this one would be very profitable, more people are interested in shooter games and other games that require very little effort.
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NitroTechZT2
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Machinimator

Thing is I doubt any new zoo game with gain the machinima community ZT2 used to have with people telling stories of private investigation, war, aliens and all of that other insane stuff.

This is what made ZT2 unique in my own eyes, it became a movie making game for some and for some others it became a simulator of trying to create sea world or many other zoos throughout the world.

For some though, it turned into creating Jurassic park or telling stories about the prehistoric world.

Essentially ZT2 is a unique gem with a unique community that is hard to find now. A dedicated and well developed community with so many different branches it's hard to keep track of.

But none of this would be possible without the inner workings of such an easy game to code and mod for.

Basically instead of being a Zoo Tycoon game, it turned into a sandbox with only the imagination and engine stability as the limit.
Edited by NitroTechZT2, Jun 18 2018, 06:52 PM.
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Burns
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King of Lemurs

Makaio
Jun 17 2018, 03:28 PM
However, I'm someone who simply doesn't have the time, or the desire, really, to learn how to do all the sorts of things that are necessary to create realistic animals that are up to today's standards, such as modeling from scratch, weight painting, custom animations, high quality skins that look almost photorealistic, advanced coding with new behaviors, etc.
Today's "standards" don't have to include all those fancy things, people still make fantastic looking animals out of existing resources. The "standards," specifically in the making of new models just help to expand the potential for the people who don't know all the modeling and advanced coding things. Many designers are able to make incredible looking things out of these existing models. One that comes to mind (begrudgingly :P ) is ZooTycoonerFR, I mean the guy makes stuff like this...

Posted Image

out of already made models. It still uses the same animations as ducks before it but he was able to make it into something new, realistic, and interesting.


Time is another problem which I understand. Like dwarf lemurs, I go into hibernation for part of the year for school. Yet despite this I still take time every once in a while to make some stuff that looks good (in my opinion), using tactics I learned in years past. Designing is not a solid thing but rather more of an evolving thing that takes some time to learn so one can't expect to have the wistful "AD quality" without trial, error, and time.
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Makaio
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I appreciate your comments, Burns. Thanks for responding!

I think my previous post may have left a bit of a misimpression, and so I'll try to clarify a bit. First, I should let you know that I actually wrote that as I was already jumping back in and continuing to work on some old designing projects that I started, but never finished.

The point I was trying to make is that folks who are more "casual" players of Zoo Tycoon 2, while they may have found the time and motivation to design just a few years ago, when projects were fairly simple and weren't as time consuming, could be very intimidated today at all of the time and skill required to make extremely realistic downloads. You make a good point, that being able to do all of those things that I listed isn't required to make visually stunning content. I agree completely, but for the more casual observer, they may get the impression that everyone is churning out such fantastic looking models and skins, and become intimidated thinking that they could never compete in such a competitive environment. I wasn't necessarily describing my own situation, there. For me, time and interest are really the crucial factors that dictate if, and when, I get into it.

I appreciate the response a lot, Burns. Thanks!
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Megraptor
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I don't think it would be hard to get a new community going for a new game, especially if it has an online component. Look at Planet Coaster and City Skylines. Roller Coaster Tycoon and SimCity had been gone for a while, yet those two games are hugely popular and are loved- they have amazing reviews on Steam.

Which is a HUGE issue with ZT2. It had a forum, but that's really it. But computer games are usually on Steam nowadays. If someone who used to play ZT2 is going through that and sees a new zoo game, they might pick it back up, especially if it has great reviews. That and Steam is perfect for modders- Steam Workshop is a thing. So no more having to scour the internet for a mod that you heard about- it's right there, on Steam.

The other nice thing about Steam is how they handle updates and DLC. it's right there and just does it for you. So if the developer decides to introduce new animals or behaviors, it's easy to access for anyone who has the game. The same is true for bug fixes. That and if the devs pay any attention to the forums on Steam, they will know what their users want. It's up to them to communicate and react to them, but it's easier to reach them than a giant corporation like Microsoft.

I'm actually confused about the "modding is too easy" statement, because ZT2 is a Microsoft game and much of it is proprietary software. Remember, Microsoft actually makes modding games technically illegal- as seen in their EULA- this was a huge concern with Minecraft. They never released how to make animations, models, and such. That all had to be cracked by the community to do.

But if the developer is open to modding, they may provide all the necessary information to import everything- instead of waiting 10 years to figure out how to do animations. That or they may just use open source software that is very well documented. These engines may make skins, modeling and animation easier than what we currently have too.

And I gotta agree with Lucoshi. The game is old and limited. We can only work inside those limits sadly. People have tried to make a better lighting system, bigger maps, and better camera options, but they all have bugs because it just doesn't work with the old software. Personally, the small maps drive me nuts.

Seriously though, go talk to the Zoo Manager community/developers and tell them what ZT2 is missing, and things they could add to their game that ZT2 was missing.
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HENDRIX
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-retired-

About my "too easy" statement: Of course not (necessarily) intended by the devs, but there are several factors that made modding ZT2 comparatively easy: modular file structure in ZIP-like archives, XML syntax nearly throughout, relatively few in-house file formats. Add on top of that all the tools that the nif people and the ZT2 community itself has created since, and you have access to nearly everything but the source code of your game. That means potential modders have great power at their hands. To handle this power you need some expertise, and that's apparently lacking in places. Just as an extreme example of this rhetoric: Are models with 10k verts, no LODs and 4k skins a good idea in this (or any) game engine? No? Well, there are enough of those out there in Z2F-land. Just because something can be done does not mean it should be done.

Zoo Manager is on hiatus and even then, it does not seem like a viable alternative.
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Megraptor
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Why don't you think it looks like a viable alternative? And it's no longer on hiatus, as they canceled their other project.
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