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What annoys you about paleontology?; Rant on about moronic theories, complaints, or just animals that annoy you.
Topic Started: Sep 28 2013, 05:04 PM (256,481 Views)
TyrantTR
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CyborgIguana
Oct 14 2013, 05:30 PM
I guess that all theropods had feathers then, just that some of them had been modified into scales. :P
Well if it is the case that all scales are examples of undeveloped feathers, then yes. Technically all theropods are feathered. Even Carnotaurus, but strictly to a layman they would understand these features as scales.
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CyborgIguana
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I think fully-formed feathers were probably only found in maniraptors, all other theropods had proto-feathers or scales in my opinion.
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

I believe fully-formed feathers could be found on others too; a feather is still considered a feather even if it's downy - the breast feathers or a goose or the plumage on a kiwi are still feathers.
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CyborgIguana
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Dr. Hax
Oct 14 2013, 03:03 PM
My own conflict about what to think about feathers. On the one hand, I'm willing to accept and take into consideration the evidence there is for feathered tyrannosaurs. On the other hand, I have to admit that i kinda sorta prefer my Tyrannosauruses to be scaly, but I'm afraid if i state my preference, I'll be given a giant lecture about how I'm "Not considering evidence". The truth is, I do consider evidence, but like Komori Miharu, i like to think that it depended on the environment, ecology, climate, and overall habitat of the creature. Taking all that into consideration, i find there to be not much of a purpose for a T. rex to have feathers, let alone a full coat. So overall, I'm kinda split. If i state my liking for scaly T. rex, I'll get lectured, but if I just jump on the feather bandwagon i start to get uncomfortable. Basically, what I'm saying is: "OK, so i like scaly Tyrannosauruses, please don't bother me about it."
I do think tyrannosaurids had feathers, but I must admit that when it comes to depictions in media I prefer scaly tyrannosaurs to feathery ones.
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

I personally think all dinosaurs look a lot more interesting with feathery pelage.
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CyborgIguana
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Sheather
Oct 14 2013, 05:51 PM
I personally think all dinosaurs look a lot more interesting with feathery pelage.
More interesting, certainly, just not necessarily better.
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Jules
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Mihi est imperare orbi universo

I just prefer my dinosaurs as cute balls of fluff.
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

I think a feathery sauropod would be epic; in my opinions feathers make everything better but even so, some animals just didn't have them so my opinions don't really matter. I do feel most groups did though - probably almost everything except sauropods (maybe even them - some bristles or something) had some sort - even if it was just "scales" or a light fuzz.

I agree probably only maniraptoriformes and maybe some related groups had fully-formed ''flight'' feathers like modern birds.
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CyborgIguana
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I think some dinosaurs look better with fluff (raptors for example. Even before I knew they were feathered I thought something looked off about lizardy skin on that extremely bird-like body). Others I prefer scales on, it really just depends on the dino for me.
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

My very first experience with dinosaurs was Dinosaur Planet and it's feathery raptors when I was about 6, so I never even saw bald raptors until I saw Jurassic Park years later and thought they just looked horrible.
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Dr. Hax
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CyborgIguana
Oct 14 2013, 05:30 PM
I guess that all theropods had feathers then, just that some of them had been modified into scales. :P
Yeah, that's the gist of it, based on recent evidence.
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CyborgIguana
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Sheather
Oct 14 2013, 06:25 PM
My very first experience with dinosaurs was Dinosaur Planet and it's feathery raptors when I was about 6, so I never even saw bald raptors until I saw Jurassic Park years later and thought they just looked horrible.
Yeah, even the DP maniraptors were somewhat underfeathered. :P
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Sheather
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Thank you for the set, Azrael!

But they got the point across, and it was certainly the most up-to-date and accurate portrayal at that time.
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Similis
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TyrantTR
Oct 14 2013, 05:24 PM
Given newer understanding of the evolution of feathers, it is starting to become apparent that it may be the case that nearly all theropods have a common feathered ancestor. And the scales we have found would then be unformed feathers. Be that the case, and yes the jury is still out but that is the direction we are heading in, then it is possible and even seen in the fossil record, that feathered animals can become scaled. With scaled of-course meaning that they are simply unformed feathers.

Now does that mean T. rex was scaled? Absolutely not, but it means there still could be reason to scale it. I personally do not buy a scaly rex, given that it is from a long long lineage of pretty much exclusively feathered coelurosaurs, but I cannot deny the possibility, given the recent evidence, that it could have developed scales. However it is worth noting that given its phylogenetic background, the feathered option has become the least speculative. Oddly enough scales are no longer the conservative option, which is a shifting of the poles from how it was even a couple years ago.
I, so far, prefer not to follow the conclusion of the completely feathered theropod/dinosaurian/metatarsalian ancestor - even if it makes much sense and gets me hyped up. Yet. When something more is written about it being valid, I'll probably be extremely happy. Though, I was referring mainly to the coelurosaurian branch of theropods - we actually don't get to see a single line of them that gains scales over the feathers, thus my conclusion of the feather development rather than going scaley.

If we are to pick another clade... well, once more info on the siberian ornithopod is out, it'll be apparent that these animals were going more scaly the bigger they were, due to factors unknown. After all the hadrosaur integument we know is purely scaly with some scutes (though still not rough - small smooth scales).

In the end I'm still looking forward to seeing some feather evidence material from T.rex just so there is undeniable proof of it having them (as if the clear evolutionary line wasn't enough, geez), but I guess if it's not going to be whole animal imprint - people will say that feathers were only present on a tiny patch of skin.
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Dr. Hax
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I personally think the idea of any feathered dinosaur that's not a Coelorosaur, whether theropod or not, to be impractical and pointless. I can accept that coelorosaurs, at least 80% percent of them, were feathered, but due to the fact that most other dinosaurs, including hadrosaurs, ceratopsians, sauropods and pachycephalosaurs, to be impractical and highly unlikely, due to the fact that non-coelorosaur dinosaursn were closer to crocodiles than birds. (Correct me if I'm wrong). Unless you count quills on pachycephalosaurs and ceratopsids (Which they might not have even had outside of Psittaccosaurus), the spikes running along the tails of diplodocids, and the scales that all dinosaurs had (Which technically are a specially adapted/evolved form of feathers), there's no logically valid reason why non-coelorosaurs may have had feathers. Then again, I'm just restating the obvious.
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