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What annoys you about paleontology?; Rant on about moronic theories, complaints, or just animals that annoy you.
Topic Started: Sep 28 2013, 05:04 PM (256,226 Views)
Rex T
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As for the adults having just patches of fuzz or feathers Lucus's video talks about that. I would like to thank him for the video since it helped me understand it and I just hope what I'm trying to say is making sense.
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Paleop
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Paleopterix

I recommend this to all your dinosaurs are wrong episode 15 feathers

it talks about witch dinos had feathers, and what type of feathers, and
it has examples of how a trait can be applied to other members of the family tree even if there is no evidence for that specific animal, I.e. Yutyrannus and Tyrannosaurus
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Iben
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

Rex T
Jul 2 2015, 12:40 PM

However, their fur isn't designed to keep as much body heat in. .
Neither are feathers. "Preserving body heat" is the wrong way of putting it. Fur and feathers work as insulation. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the term, but this is not the same as "keeping warm". It's something EXTREMELY important to understand, otherwise you'll go your whole life thinking that feathers on big animals can't work. ( Which is utter nonsense to begin with, because of Moa's, Apeornis, etc. ) Feathers are even better at capturing a layer of air and keeping it there. So, instead of overheating they can actually cool down. That's really the basic concept of insulation. It's the reason why buildings have a small gab between outer and inner walls, it's the reason why desert nomads wear tons of clothes ( remember ? ), and it's also the reason why feathers are perfectly capable of keeping an animal cool and keeping it from overheating.

At this point, there's only one bird that has problems with overheating, and that's the Ostrich. It has problems with overheating because it has huge thigh muscles that allow it to run at 70 kmph max. That's why they do have naked thighs and emu's don't ( and mind you, Emu's live in a hotter environment and are more feathered ).

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A T.rex who lives along the shores of the inland sea and that is a tropical or sub tropical environment would still have feathers or fuzz but it's coat would be much lighter and wouldn't cover its body as an adult. My problem is when people, scientist and artists included, throw both animals into the boat of having thick heat retaining coats of feathers when it doesn't make sense for them to both have them for different environments.


You're forgetting one thing though. Sunburn. Feathers can effectively protect against sunburn, and an animal that lives in tropical areas could really use that. Like, IDK, Cassowaries ?

Your problem isn't with people, scientist and artists, no, your problem lies in the fact that you are focussing on one part of the benefits of feathers and believe that's the only benefit. While you couldn't be more wrong really. Your lack of knowledge when it comes to feathers and integument makes you think that it wouldn't make sense, but once you educate yourself on the matter, you'll quickly realize it does make a lot of sense.

And really, anyone defending feathers on young and scales on adults has no clue of how biology works, at all.
Edited by Iben, Jul 2 2015, 01:03 PM.
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Rex T
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I understand that traits can apply to different animals if they are close relatives. However, the animals still has to conform to fit in it's environment. If Yutyrannus and T.rex are closely related then yes they both probably shared triat like fuzz or feathers. But Yutyrannus, as far as I know, lived in colder climates and it's feathered would have helped it to retain its body heat. A T.rex on the other had, who lived in a warmer climate, wouldn't have the Yutyrannus's thick heat retaining coat because its doesn't need it to live in it's environment. It would need something thinier or a coat that helped it to retain heat but also to loss heat if needed. I get upset when people try give them the same coat. Like a T.rex with a thick coat or a Yutyrannus with a lighter coat. Yes, since they are both related they could have the same kinds of feathers but since they lived in two different environments they would adapt their feathers to fit their home. I just think that while theropods probably did have feathers at least some point their feathers or lack of feathers would adapt to fit their environment and they wouldn't be an "one size fits all" kind of feathers either heat retaining or something else.
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Rex T
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I guess I should just say that I don't like when people give traits to animals when it makes no sense for where the animal lived. If it had fur, feathers, scales, or was naked and animal's skin would help it in some way to live in it's habitat. An animals who lived in the cold would have something to keep in its body heat it would some form of insulation. Things like thick fur coats, downy feathers, blubber, or anything else that keeps the animal from dying of hypothermia these animals would have and something that lives in a warm humid environment wouldn't have or at least wouldn't have to the same degree because it doesn't need it to live it has other things it has to work with.
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Furka
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Please don't double post, next time use the edit button.
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Mathius Tyra
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Rat snake is love... Rat snake is life

Rex T
Jul 2 2015, 01:11 PM
I understand that traits can apply to different animals if they are close relatives. However, the animals still has to conform to fit in it's environment. If Yutyrannus and T.rex are closely related then yes they both probably shared triat like fuzz or feathers. But Yutyrannus, as far as I know, lived in colder climates and it's feathered would have helped it to retain its body heat. A T.rex on the other had, who lived in a warmer climate, wouldn't have the Yutyrannus's thick heat retaining coat because its doesn't need it to live in it's environment. It would need something thinier or a coat that helped it to retain heat but also to loss heat if needed. I get upset when people try give them the same coat. Like a T.rex with a thick coat or a Yutyrannus with a lighter coat. Yes, since they are both related they could have the same kinds of feathers but since they lived in two different environments they would adapt their feathers to fit their home. I just think that while theropods probably did have feathers at least some point their feathers or lack of feathers would adapt to fit their environment and they wouldn't be an "one size fits all" kind of feathers either heat retaining or something else.
So, your problem is that some people just seem to draw T. rex with too thick coat or Yutyrannus with too thin coat?
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Rex T
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Yes exactly that is what I'm getting at. And sorry about the double post I'm rubbish when it comes to forums.


I don't like when people show dinosaurs or any animal in a way that makes doesn't show the animal being correctly adapted to live in it's environment.
Edited by Rex T, Jul 2 2015, 01:21 PM.
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Iben
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

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I wouldn't necessarily call these animals "lightly feathered". Both live in environments that are hotter than the environment of Tyrannosaurus. And more importantly, Tyrannosaurs had pretty similar feathers to these. We see no animals losing feathers today due to hotter conditions, so there's no reason to assume this was the case for bigger theropods.

I don't really understand why you really keep ignoring the "cooling down" factor in feathers. Please, give me big animals that lost fur/feathers/integument specifically because they live in hot climates. You'll be quick to see that there are none. Even birds in deserts still have quite some feathers. Because again, insulation = keeping warm AND cooling down.
Edited by Iben, Jul 2 2015, 01:22 PM.
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Luca9108
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Master of Dinosaurs

It doesn't matter how thick the coat is, Emus have a thick coat and live in a hot enviroment.
Edit: :ninja: ad
Edited by Luca9108, Jul 2 2015, 01:21 PM.
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Posted Image Flish
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Important to note is that Emus live not only in hot climates, but also in much cooler areas up in the mountains where there is snow, so not only are they capable of staying cool and warm, they can do so simultaneously without having to grow a thicker coat of feathers or loose feathers like mammals do in the same situation, making the animal much more adaptable to sudden climate changes or displacement from their original environment.
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Rex T
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I'm not saying an animal completely lost all its feathers I'm saying that an animal evolves to fit it's environment and has traits to help it and get annoyed when people incorrectly depict an animal's features. If you think a T.rex's feathers were used to cool it down that fine and I agree but don't show me a illustration of a t.rex with feathers that are designed to insulate it in the cold because Yutyrannus had them so T.rex must have. Different kinds of feathers served different purposes and different animals in different environments would have different kinds of feathers. This is might be a bit extreme but we can agree that a penguin and an ostrich have different kinds of feathers. A penguin with an ostrich's feathers wouldn't be able to survive in Antarctica and the same goes for a ostrich with penguin feathers would have a hard time in the hot dry climate of Africa. Dinosaur's feathers, whatever their use, were designed to help it survive in its home. I just want them to be represented correctly in a way that makes sense for where the animal lived and not to be given something that doesn't make sense from an evolutionary stand point.

I don't want some of my favorite creatures to be shown incorrectly because it makes it look cooler or makes it look scarier. I just want scientifically accurate depictions of dinosaurs and I get annoyed when I see recently made depictions of them which aren't scientifically accurate.
Edited by Rex T, Jul 2 2015, 01:34 PM.
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Penguins do just fine in hot, dry environments today. Most species of penguin live in relatively warm environments, actually. Their feathers are different because they are for streamlining the animal and insulating it from water, not because they live in the Antarctic.
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Rex T
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I don't know if you aren't understanding what I'm trying to say, which is completely possible since I have a hard time saying what I want, but what I'm trying to get at is an animal evolves to fit its environment and I just want dinosaurs to be shown like that. We wouldn't draw a camel in the Arctic, yes I know some camels live in colder environments, because it didn't evolve to live there. I want dinosaurs to be shown correctly for where they lived and if that meant a T.rex looked like a big multi colored peafowl I'll accept it I just want scientifically accurate dinosaurs to be shown more.
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Iben
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There'll be no foot-walking! Just air-flying!

Rex T
Jul 2 2015, 01:32 PM
If you think a T.rex's feathers were used to cool it down that fine and I agree but don't show me a illustration of a t.rex with feathers that are designed to insulate it in the cold because Yutyrannus had them so T.rex must have.
Nobody ever said that, but things this are unlikely while things like this are much more likely.

Yutyrannus and T.rex probably had pretty much the same feathers, but a different feather coat. But that doesn't mean it only had patches of course.


But don't worry. Tyrannosaurus being a multi-coloured peafowl would be quite unlikely. Modern birds show us what is and isn't common in terms of colouration, and they had prey that could see in colour as well, so it's a reasonable assumption that they had some camouflaging coat. But also probably head some other more colourful display features for mating of course.
Edited by Iben, Jul 2 2015, 01:52 PM.
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