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Favorite Dinosaur Reconstructions
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Topic Started: Sep 28 2013, 09:05 PM (305,624 Views)
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CyborgIguana
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May 18 2015, 06:13 PM
Post #2011
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Yeah, Dinosaur Train isn't too bad for a kid's show in regard to paleontological accuracy.
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Incinerox
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May 18 2015, 09:17 PM
Post #2012
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Āeksiot Zaldrīzoti
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- Iben
- May 18 2015, 11:33 AM
My biggest problem with the naked thighs is the fact that so far we've only have one animal that has the naked thighs shown in most reconstruction. And that's in an ostrich. Animals like Emu's, Nandu's, Cassowaries, etc. all have feathered thighs. To me, it's important to also keep the biological side of the science in mind ( which for instance, completely debunks any hypothesis including "feathered as young, scaly as adult), and so far it seems to be an odd thing amongst birds. I'm not saying that it's therefore an argument against it, but looking at the science side of it, we have to consider modern birds at least for a bit. The science against it does makes sense, looking at modern animals and comparing their size/habitat/top speeds ( I've already explained it before so I don't really think I have to do it again), but then again you raise a valid point when considering the tail. This would either mean that the thighs are indeed naked, but then we do have their habitat/climate to consider. Because although the average temperature doesn't seem to influence the featheredness of the thighs in warm climates ( as in, Emu's living in a far hotter area than Ostriches, but have more feathers on their thighs than Ostriches ), but I'm not entirely sure that this also the case for lower temperatures. With a habitat with an average temperature of 7~11°C ( Source), which only differs very little with Yutyrannus' habitat (10°C Source ), I'm more inclined to believe that Tyrannosaurus would have had a similar amount of feathering as Yutyrannus. Especially given the fact that we aren't entirely sure that the underside of Tyrannosaurus' tail was indeed unfeathered. We have a few patches, but those are really small according to Larson, and the fact that Holtz claims it's possible that the patches we have might not even be from Tyrannosaurus, I think a bit of scepticism might be required when we leave the underside of the tail unfeathered. So when looking at the science side of it, I'm a bit more inclined to think that naked thighs are a specific form of adaptation only found in birds/dinosaurs with high top-speeds, simply because of the heat the muscles create. I really want to respond to this post, but I worry that we'll be derailing this topic too far...
... Ach, what the hell. I'll respond to it, save space by throwing it into a spoiler, and post some kind of "Favourite Restoration Tax" after.
Spoiler: click to toggle I'll start by saying that at no point do I outright disagree with you (actually, as I typed it out, there were a couple of technicalities where I did, but nothing directly related to feathers). But I do feel that you are sticking to constraints which are difficult, or at least not entirely necessary for a non-avian theropod like tyrannosaurids to meet.
Starting with your comparison with ratites. Yes, are correct about ostriches being the only known birds with entirely featherless legs, and yes, the other ratites stick with the feathered thigh tradition. And most certainly yes, anyone who says "feathered young, scaly adults" is simply an imbecile who cannot science properly. But your point about considering modern birds is a valid idea... But only to a degree.
I'm going to throw aside the whole thing about temperature for a bit because it's less relevant when talking feather business (if it were mammalian-tier fur, it would be THE thing to discuss). I throw it aside because I want to point out that while considering modern birds is a good idea, when it comes to dinosaurs, many of these rules are broken. For example, no ratite has a bald tail. In fact, save for Ostriches (ostriches are turning out to be really weird among the ratites as they are), none of them have tails that even develop past their own hip girdle to be feathered or bald in the first place. Contrast with tyrannosaurids, which have HUGE tails with known samples of leather (if the samples turn out to be something else, it intrigues me on what that something is). You wish to stick with the tradition that modern birds follow, and give tyrannosauroids fluffy tails, that's totally fine. Other tyrannosaurs have feathered tails, and there is at least it's not difficult explaining why there's leather prints and not feathers.
But to say that's more valid than following the route that some non-avian (or indeed non maniraptoran) coelurosaurs like Juravenator (holotype; reclassified as related to Ornitholestes) and Compsognathus (Specimen MNHN CNJ 79), which have preserved featherless skin in the same areas we have multiple tyrannosaur leather samples for (despite having closely related taxon with feather samples from similar locations), is a bit extreme. But of course, there's Dilong and Yutyrannus to contend with, and they're known from entirely feathered specimens (Yutyrannus's case exceptionally so - I'll cover that part in a bit).
Next, we can definitely both agree that heat generation at high speed is simply a poor excuse to give tyrannosaurids featherless thighs. I suppose there's an argument that as a large animal, the heat it generates as it runs its increased exponentially compared to an animal the size of an ostrich, but I'm not inclined to say that holds any true merit (but it's a thought worth some kind of looking into regardless).
But you bring up climate. You are right about feathers in hot climates. It's common knowledge for anyone that discusses this crap like we do that feathers are very good at temperature regulation, not just keeping an animal as warm as possible like fur. A large animal will not need less feathers to cool down than a smaller animal, and a hotter climate does not necessarily warrant less feathers either. It's why emus and cassowaries can get away with having more feathers than an ostrich in hotter climates (that said, cassowaries at least get shaded - the other examples also have sunburn to worry about, assuming birds are even at risk of sunburn. It's not something I've actually looked into).
But when it comes to cold climates, differences in feathers suddenly matter. It's why several grouse species have denser, softer winter coats which replace brown, normal summer coats every year. It's why snowy owls have feathers on all but the soles of their feet. In deepest winter, the game changes.
And this is precisely why I don't think referring to Yutyrannus as an example is of much use. Because you've cited that Yutyrannus's habitat has a yearly average temperature of 10°C, while Hell Creek apparently has a yearly average of 7-11°C (which isn't quite true, as I shall explain).
While that's all fine and dandy, there's a couple of points which you missed out (either to prove a point, or accidentally overlooked them): 1) The paper about Yixian climate makes it explicitly clear that an average of 10°C was "exceptionally cold" for the Mesozoic. It also talks about how China was further north than it is today (Yixian is already bout as far north you can get in China today), how the Early Cretaceous was going through a glacial period (there were polar ice caps) and that sediment isotopes, along with growth ring studies and a complete absence of crocodilian species indicates that winters were BITTERLY cold. And dry too. Think modern day Alberta on a colder than normal year with a wetter than normal summer. Winters were very likely snowy, which is very good reason to have feathers all the way down to your toes if you can't fly.
2) You've quoted the Hell Creek paper in saying that it's yearly average was from 7-11°C. That was merely one test based on one leaf test. Even simply including estimation overlap brings the temperature range from 5 - 14°C. That's a pretty wide range. But then they bring up a second test that narrows it down to 9-14°C (it's actually stated as 11-12°C +- 2). So the absolute coldest consistent estimate is about 11°C, which is not much more than Yixian. But then Hell Creek has several confirmed crocodilians. And crocodilians, along with the plants identified from the area, needed fairly consistent yearly temperatures, with an average of AT LEAST 13-14°C (as quoted from the Yixian paper), and so that is technically the set of numbers we SHOULD be working with here. And those numbers are more comparable to North Florida up to the Carolinas. New York State on a particularly cold year. And we're dealing with a much wetter, and more consistent yearly climate which would have never been below 0°C. Ever.
So if we're really taking temperature into consideration over a debate about feathers... It is perhaps wise to consider that Yixian was, and I quote the paper, "exceptionally cold". Meaning that Yutyrannus perhaps exhibited the most extreme feathering among large tyrannosauroids. In the same way that Woolly Mammoths and Mastodons exhibited more extreme winter adaptations than their modern Elephas and Loxodonta relatives.
As for the patches potentially not belonging to Tyrannosaurus at all, perhaps they're not. But given that there's more than one instance of this happening for Tyrannosaurus, and that it also occurs in Gorgosaurus as well (first thing mentioned on the list of integument on Hell Creek forum), one specimen being removed from the picture does not dissolve the hypothesis entirely.
So when looking at the science side of it, sure, keep thinking that. You aren't inherently wrong, after all. But neither am I, even taking into consideration the science of it. And as we've learned over the years, especially with the likes of Juravenator, Yutyrannus and Kulindadromeus now in the picture, dinosaur integument was highly variable.
So anyway, I've decided that after a long conversation over what kind of feathers I'd give a T. rex, perhaps it's time I show everyone my absolute favourite T. rex ever.
...Mine...
... With a little bit by which I mean a ****ton of help from a very good friend of mine, but still...
...Mine...
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CyborgIguana
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May 18 2015, 09:23 PM
Post #2013
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Sorry to derail the topic even further, but weren't the scale impressions on Compsognathus proven in fact to be corpse wax? Though AFAIK the scales on Juravenator are still scales.
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BossAggron
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May 18 2015, 09:57 PM
Post #2014
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- Incinerox
- May 18 2015, 09:17 PM
So anyway, I've decided that after a long conversation over what kind of feathers I'd give a T. rex, perhaps it's time I show everyone my absolute favourite T. rex ever. ...Mine...... With a little bit by which I mean a ****ton of help from a very good friend of mine, but still......Mine... I think i just found my favorite Tyrannosaurus rex, I actually stopped scrolling.
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Incinerox
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May 18 2015, 10:08 PM
Post #2015
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Āeksiot Zaldrīzoti
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- CyborgIguana
- May 18 2015, 09:23 PM
Sorry to derail the topic even further, but weren't the scale impressions on Compsognathus proven in fact to be corpse wax? Only those "found" on the torso.
Also, thanks dude. That means a lot.
Let's hope Prehistoric Kingdom don't steal this version as well...
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Mathius Tyra
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May 18 2015, 10:43 PM
Post #2016
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Rat snake is love... Rat snake is life
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- Incinerox
- May 18 2015, 09:17 PM
...Mine...... With a little bit by which I mean a ****ton of help from a very good friend of mine, but still......Mine... Did something like some kind of agamid lizards inspire you about the color? I feel kinda familiar about it.
And it's a great restoration!
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54godamora
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May 18 2015, 11:13 PM
Post #2017
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the reason why i said jack the ripper is because in my RWBY fanfic,one of the forms he can turn into is a utahraptor, that he uses to slay monsters.not only that but it breathes fire!
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Guat
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May 18 2015, 11:41 PM
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- 54godamora
- May 18 2015, 11:13 PM
the reason why i said jack the ripper is because in my RWBY fanfic,one of the forms he can turn into is a utahraptor, that he uses to slay monsters.not only that but it breathes fire! That's not a Utahraptor. That's a monster.
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54godamora
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May 18 2015, 11:43 PM
Post #2019
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is that good or bad also the rex will be like godzilla complete with blue heat ray and original '54 roar for awesomeness.
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Guat
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May 18 2015, 11:47 PM
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I mean that adding badass superpowers to a dinosaur may sound cool but it makes a creature far from the actual animal.
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54godamora
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May 18 2015, 11:50 PM
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the fanfanfic is a RWBY so imagine the scope of his opponents. Also these creatures a Dna enhanced versions of their extinct counterparts,so expect some major altercations to the these animals.
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BossAggron
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May 19 2015, 03:00 AM
Post #2022
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- 54godamora
- May 18 2015, 11:50 PM
the fanfanfic is a RWBY so imagine the scope of his opponents. Also these creatures a Dna enhanced versions of their extinct counterparts,so expect some major altercations to the these animals. Not sure that can allow for Such powers described.
To keep things on topic, I love these Raptors

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Incinerox
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May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
Post #2023
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- Mathius Tyra
- May 18 2015, 10:43 PM
Did something like some kind of agamid lizards inspire you about the color? I feel kinda familiar about it.
And it's a great restoration! Well it was an updated version of the last red-headed T.rex that I helped with (you know, the one stolen by Prehistoric Kingdom?). That one was scaly, so obviously it needed some tweaking to fit more up-to-date integument.
But the original was indeed based off agamids. About half a dozen Australian species, I think. I can't remember ALL of the species used, but the eye stripe was based off an Eastern Water Dragon.
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Paleop
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May 19 2015, 03:54 PM
Post #2024
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- Incinerox
- May 18 2015, 09:17 PM
So anyway, I've decided that after a long conversation over what kind of feathers I'd give a T. rex, perhaps it's time I show everyone my absolute favourite T. rex ever. ...Mine...... With a little bit by which I mean a ****ton of help from a very good friend of mine, but still......Mine... sorry to derail this topic again, but how did you draw that beautiful t rex? did you use Photoshop? Gimp?
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Incinerox
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May 19 2015, 04:09 PM
Post #2025
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Āeksiot Zaldrīzoti
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All in Photoshop CS5.
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