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| Extinct Animal Questions | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 26 2013, 10:24 PM (193,222 Views) | |
| stargatedalek | Jun 6 2018, 06:41 PM Post #4081 |
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!
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More like neither. |
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| 54godamora | Jun 6 2018, 06:59 PM Post #4082 |
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don't some birds alive today hunt in packs and don't some reptiles use mobbing behavior, like komodo dragons? |
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| Komodo | Jun 6 2018, 10:08 PM Post #4083 |
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Varanus komodoensis
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Archosaurs hunting in packs is more an exception than a rule. Among predatory birds, the Harris's Hawk is the odd one of its family regarding cooperative hunting, and that's because it's believed to be smarter than the average raptor. Dromaeosaurids, though relatively smart for dinosaurs, were still in the middle range of the spectrum if you take all vertebrates into consideration, and definitely not as smart as modern birds and mammals. It's still plausible some species could travel or even capture prey and feed together, but don't expect complex hunting strategies like those of lions or wolves. Komodo dragons don't rely completely on mobbing behavior/kleptoparasitism to feed, that occurs mostly when many dragons gather around a prey, and larger specimens make their way to eat first. Still, like most predators, dromaeosaurids probably were opportunistic hunters if they needed to, seizing any chance of securing a safe meal, so eating carrion, robbing food and harassing smaller carnivores on some ocassions, can't be fully ruled out. |
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| stargatedalek | Jun 7 2018, 12:23 AM Post #4084 |
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!
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Most Dromaeosaurs were also nocturnal to the point where we see specialized adaptations in the diurnal species rather than the nocturnal ones. Most birds that hunt cooperatively are not birds of prey, and of them only ground hornbills are even vaguely relatable to Dromaeosaurs (as most are piscivorous). It's very unlikely that Dromaeosaurs hunted in packs or mobs, though this is based on their anatomy and what we know of their diets, not on intellect. Intelligence is not particularly relevant to an animals ability to hunt in coordination. |
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| Incinerox | Jun 7 2018, 07:15 AM Post #4085 |
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Āeksiot Zaldrīzoti
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This wasn't meant to be as long a text wall as it turned out to be. Whoops.I think the thing that's most interesting to me about the whole subject is the fact we have multiple occasions where groups as large as 6 individuals are observed in particularly large dromaeosaur species from the Early Cretaceous. Say what you want about other dromaeosaurs, but this, to me, is more than coincidence. I guess overall, my absolute honest opinion (and I do stress the word "opinion" here) on the subject is that whether or not dromaeosaurids lived in groups or not is entirely variable between species. Some just did, some just didn't. No either/or for the whole clade (which people tend to actually end up doing). And I think that distinction may simply be the result of environmental factors. You can't just "tell" either way by looking at the bones. Edited by Incinerox, Jun 7 2018, 07:16 AM.
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| 54godamora | Jun 7 2018, 10:26 AM Post #4086 |
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I apologize if I started a nasty debate |
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| Furka | Jun 7 2018, 11:18 AM Post #4087 |
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Truth to be told, the Utahraptor pit doesn't convince me much about their social nature. IIRC there was one (maybe two?) adult, and all the others were youngs or juveniles. To me it could be the case of the one adult dominant animal(s ?) resident in that area and the younger ones which are allowed into its territory because they pose no threat or competition for either food or mating (if anything they could be seen as food aswell). No other adults because you already have one that would keep the others away from the area. Sorta like how Golden Eagle pairs are very territorial towards other adults and especially rival nesting pairs, but will usually let young animals enter their space (especially since youngs are more vagrant and wouldn't remain in one place for long). |
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| stargatedalek | Jun 7 2018, 11:42 AM Post #4088 |
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!
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I'm having trouble relocating my sources on the nocturnal evidence, I'll have to get back to you on that. That was in reference to Komodo speculating they were generalist predators, which is also not impossible for nocturnal animals though considerably less common than specialization (in large animals anyway). Not in reference to cooperative hunting. When I said anatomy I meant that in reference to methods of killing. Adaptations for raptor-like prey restraint are seen almost universally among dromaeosaurs and it's not something that lends itself well to cooperative hunting. That doesn't rule out potentially tracking or chasing prey as a group, though we see these RPR adaptations in the same large dromaeosaurs we find preserved together so they presumably still killed in the same "one at a time" way. The reason dromaeosaur morphology gives us anything to go by for group hunting is only because it's so specific to their methods of killing. It wouldn't hold water with practically any other group of animals. Living in a cohesive, even amicable group is different from hunting as one, we see this distinction quite often in seabirds. Those that do not aggressively compete for nest space or resources will often interact peacefully or even defend their immediate neighbors nests from predators, regardless of whether they hunt together at all let alone cooperatively. It's also worth noting some large dromaeosaurs have rather extreme anatomical differences between adults and young, such as flight capable young Deinonychus. While there are a number of different ways this could be taken; vestigial traits from a flying ancestor, juveniles living on their own and behaving differently, or juveniles living with adults and so needing these adaptations to stay out of harms way, are the most commonly presumed answers. |
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Jun 7 2018, 11:49 AM Post #4089 |
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I actually have put extensive investigation into this myself, and while there is no correlation between group living in ambush predators (like most Dromaeosaurs), there IS some correlation in morphology. We only ever see any signs of group behavior in large Dromaeosaurs. If anything, Velociraptorines and Unelagiines show adaptations specifically for hunting prey too small for multiple animals to feed on- fish and small game. This leaves Dromaeosaurines (and Deinonychus, depending on where you place it), which we see actual evidence of group behavior in (trackways and the Utah grouping) on the subject of morphology not indicating group behavior, this is simply not true. We do not see any animal alive today that is both an endurance predator and hunts alone. Sailfish, dholes, wolves, hyenas, humans, orcas, etc. all are endurance hunters and pack hunters. This is why we can say with very little doubt Ceratosaurus and Dilophosaurus were both group animals (I mean, the Dilophosaurus holotype was found with two other individuals, too, so) As for nocturnality in Dromaeosaurs and their braincases, megafaunal ambush predators are almost always nocturnal. It makes it much, much easier to hunt, and while it's not always the case in ambush predators (cheetahs are diurnal, but should be taken as an exception as this is almost certainly directly to avoid competition with larger, more dangerous predators) it's a pretty safe rule to live by, and from what I heard (though I never saw any paper) there was a study on Dromaeosaur braincases that indicates they had a massive olfactory bulge, and extreme senses of smell, eyesight, or hearing all indicate nocturnal behavior. |
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| 54godamora | Jun 11 2018, 04:16 PM Post #4090 |
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what kind of islands where the ones like at the solnhofen limestone? i know that based on the fauna, it was islands with large bodies of water like lagoons and reefs but what were the islands like? were they arid or tropical? |
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| Komodo | Jun 11 2018, 04:52 PM Post #4091 |
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Varanus komodoensis
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They seem to have been covered in sub-tropical dry forests and scrublands, with most of the vegetation comprised of shrubs, cycads and small trees. The climate was likely seasonal, with droughts being longer than rainy times.
Edited by Komodo, Jun 11 2018, 04:53 PM.
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| 54godamora | Jun 15 2018, 01:11 PM Post #4092 |
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define small trees. small like 3 meters tall or 3 feet tall? |
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| Komodo | Jun 15 2018, 02:32 PM Post #4093 |
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Varanus komodoensis
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Closer to 3 meters tall, according to wikipedia. |
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| 54godamora | Jun 20 2018, 12:35 PM Post #4094 |
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ok next fossil formation, cedar mt 126 mya. my Princeton field guide of dinosaurs reads as: "short wet season, otherwise semiarid with floodplain prairies and open woodlands, and riverine forests" any additional info? |
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| Incinerox | Jun 20 2018, 01:18 PM Post #4095 |
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Āeksiot Zaldrīzoti
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I think most of your questions can be solved with literally 5 minutes of googling. |
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