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Extinct Animal Questions
Topic Started: Nov 26 2013, 10:24 PM (193,429 Views)
Incinerox
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SamtheMan
Jan 14 2015, 05:09 AM
Hi again, there are a few questions that have stumbled upon recently, hope you guys won't mind answering them.

1. What do we know of the flora found at the Ojo Alamo Formation and at the North Horn Formation? The Ojo Alamo is said to be semi-arid but I haven't heard of any specifics like grasses, trees, etc. I'm also wondering about the diet Alamosaurus would've had if it lived in an area that didn't have too many large trees.

2. Do we have any clues about the combat abilities of large hadrosaurids like Edmontosaurus (or hadrosaurids of any size for that matter)? I understand that running would've been their first choice in many situations, but I'm wondering about how individuals would fight against each other for dominance or if a predator had them in a corner.

3. What do we know about Augustynolophus? I was excited to hear about a dinosaur from California, but I haven't heard many details about it such as size, the habitat it lived in, etc.

4. Where have fossils of Smilodon fatalis been found? I know of sites in California and Florida but I'm wondering how far north this species may have gone (or the chances of finding frozen specimens).

Thanks again!
1. Well, it's got similar wildlife as Hell Creek and stuff. Sure there's minor differences but in terms of flora, you'd probably be looking at similar stuff: mostly beech trees, some dawn redwoods, ground ferns, buckthorns etc. But it'd probably be a bit more open and favour some Araucaria species if they've got enough space for a titanosaur as large as Alamosaurus to move about. An interesting point to make is that in South America at least, it's been hypothesised that the large cones and tall trunks of Monkeypuzzle and Bunya Pines (a modern Araucaria) was the result of an evolutionary arms race between Araucaria and giant titanosaurs. Some food for thought there.

2. Biting, kicking, throwing their weight around etc. Possibly using their tails as well if they were flexible enough but I'm not 100% sure how viable that was. But you'd be surprised at how many attack options a seemingly defenseless animal has. Take modern horses for example. They'll resort to trampling, boxing, biting kicking and they don't neccesarily have any specialised bodyparts for attack. There's at least one case of Edmontosaurus surviving from a T. rex's attack to its tail, and living long enough after for it to heal over. It must've done something right.

3. Partial limbs and a semi-complete skull I believe. I THINK it's about 8m long or something, and lived in the same time/place as Alamosaurus. It used to be considered a third species of Saurolophus, S. morrisi when it was first described in 2013, but then re-evaluated as a new genus last year. We don't really know much about it, or its ecosystem.

4. Smilodon fatalis was generally around California and Florida aye, so it presumably covered much of the South. Apparently it also got as far south as western South America, kinda like how modern cougars exist there as well. As for how far north it got, probably not very. Canada and much of the northern states were completely covered in ice during its time. But it's pretty likely that it was fairly widespread across the greener parts of the States. You won't find frozen specimens though. Mammoths get that treatment because they were naturally found in areas prone to ice, and the areas where frozen mummies were dug up have been consistently cold enough to preserve them ie. Siberia. AND mammoths were significantly younger and actually coexisted with humans. Smilodon was long gone by that point. We won't be finding frozen Smilodon fatalis mummies.
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CyborgIguana
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I thought Smilodon existed alongside humans as well, at least in certain parts of its geographic and temporal range.
Edited by CyborgIguana, Jan 14 2015, 12:37 PM.
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Incinerox
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Huh, Smilodon lasted until 10,000 years ago. I thought it was earlier than that.

Still, not enough ice in their habitats.
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CyborgIguana
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Couldnt think of a better place to ask this, but why was the Paleo News & Info topic closed.
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Incinerox
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I was wondering that myself.
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stargatedalek
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I'm not slow! That's just my moe!

I asked in the discussion group a few hours ago, I can't think of any reason for it to be closed
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Joe99
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one thing that I have been wondering is did livyatan melvillei live in pods
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CyborgIguana
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Short answer: we don't know.

I doubt it though, since AFAIK modern sperm whales generally don't live in pods (could be wrong about this).
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Mathius Tyra
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Rat snake is love... Rat snake is life

^Only females and juveniles live in pod. Male sperm whales are mainly solitary.
Edited by Mathius Tyra, Jan 15 2015, 10:59 PM.
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SamtheMan
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Thanks again for all the answers everyone sent in, its appreciated.

@Incinerox In regards to your answer to my first question, does that answer apply to both of those formations or just one of them? I just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand. I'm definitely interested in that theory about the Araucaria and giant titanosaurs! Sounds similar to how its been suspected that the pronghorn antelope became so fast due to its own 'race' against the american cheetah (Miracinonyx) during the last ice age. While this is a bit late, I did find out more about Smilodon fatalis. So far its been found as far north as Indiana so it wouldn't have been too far from the ice sheet but, like you mentioned, Indiana isn't consistently cold enough to preserve frozen specimens (though I'm sure you and I wouldn't mind being proved wrong if we ever did find a frozen one in Canada, etc. as unlikely as it is). However, Smilodon's relative Homotherium has been found as far north as Alaska so that would be an interesting find in the ice!

Here's some more questions:

1. I've heard on a couple of sites that apparently the Carnotaurus specimen we found wasn't quite fully grown but I haven't heard of this in most other places. Is there any proof of this?

2. I have become quite excited to hear about this Utahraptor paper that is supposed to come out soon! However, I was wondering if this paper relates to the discovery of the 6+ Utahraptors discovered together or if its from an earlier discovery? Also, is there any idea about what we can expect from this paper and what its supposed to cover?
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Incinerox
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SamtheMan
Jan 18 2015, 06:13 AM
Thanks again for all the answers everyone sent in, its appreciated.

@Incinerox In regards to your answer to my first question, does that answer apply to both of those formations or just one of them? I just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand. I'm definitely interested in that theory about the Araucaria and giant titanosaurs! Sounds similar to how its been suspected that the pronghorn antelope became so fast due to its own 'race' against the american cheetah (Miracinonyx) during the last ice age. While this is a bit late, I did find out more about Smilodon fatalis. So far its been found as far north as Indiana so it wouldn't have been too far from the ice sheet but, like you mentioned, Indiana isn't consistently cold enough to preserve frozen specimens (though I'm sure you and I wouldn't mind being proved wrong if we ever did find a frozen one in Canada, etc. as unlikely as it is). However, Smilodon's relative Homotherium has been found as far north as Alaska so that would be an interesting find in the ice!

Here's some more questions:

1. I've heard on a couple of sites that apparently the Carnotaurus specimen we found wasn't quite fully grown but I haven't heard of this in most other places. Is there any proof of this?

2. I have become quite excited to hear about this Utahraptor paper that is supposed to come out soon! However, I was wondering if this paper relates to the discovery of the 6+ Utahraptors discovered together or if its from an earlier discovery? Also, is there any idea about what we can expect from this paper and what its supposed to cover?
The funny thing about the Ice Age was that not only was Alaska connected to Russia via the Bering Land Bridge, but it was ALSO a part of the ginormous Eurasian tundra that stretched from Alaska to as far west as Spain. East of Alaska ie. almost all of Canada and northern USA was covered in the largest stretch of ice on the planet save for Antarctica. Eurasia, while really cold and covered in extensive tundra regions, was mostly so dry that it spent a lot of its time ice free. The ice free regions of the States were surprisingly diverse and very suitable for the typical ice age giants we know and love, like Smilodon and Columbian mammoths. Homotherium is a far more likely species to find in the ice, and I'd LOVE for that to happen. But I'm still not sure if it's as cold up there as the areas where Siberian mammoths are dug up. After all, Alaska still has its spring melt.

Speaking of Columbian mammoths, I believe there was a question about that earlier in this topic which I failed to answer. Bit of an update on that. We have hair samples and APPARENTLY they were reddish. A browning gingery colour...

...Or was it mastodons the question was about? Ach, nevermind. Use that information as you will.

So new questions:

1. Huh, I've never heard about that.

2. It's very much possible that the paper originally intended to be a reassessment of Utahraptor's skeleton's been postponed because of the new death trap find. Kinda depends on whether the paper was supposed to be a specimen description or a full reassessment of Utahraptor's osteology based on all known remains, which will then have 6 new specimens to be added to the collection to complete the picture. In other words, I don't know. Even before this find, we seemed to have enough to give the species a complete makeover.
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Yi Qi
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Mathius Tyra
Jan 15 2015, 10:59 PM
^Only females and juveniles live in pod. Male sperm whales are mainly solitary.
Males often group in pods aswell, specally during mating seasons where groups of males often compete for pods of females and calves.

in general, sperm whales are very socializing and vocal animals, and Zygophyseter and Brygymophyseter, other predatory raptorial sperm whales have been found out to be social animals (atleast during hunting and breeding, from the bonebeds we could gather in Japan and Peru) aswell, so i don't doubt it for livyathan either.

infact, from what i could gather, the miocene Peruvian coastal beds of the Pisco-Ica formation groups were a battleground of giant beasts, if anything, it was one of if not the most dangerous seas ever, tied with the cretaceous western interior seaway in that respect.

at the top you had Livyathan melvillei and Carcharocles megalodon, two massive monsters that likely surpassed 13 meters in length, those were undoubtedly the rulers of their enviroment, and the only threat to these creatures would be eachother.

on the second tier you had Brygymophyseter, zygophyseter and its ilk, largely social predatorial whales with toothy mouths and bites far worse than their bark

on the third tier, the "Shark toothed dolphins" or squalodontids, meanarse gigantic orca sized relatives of the ganges and the indus susu, with serrated, shark like teeth and a long, lance like snout that probably allowed these predators to rip enormous chunks of flesh from large whales while they're still alive, they were the allosaurs of the miocene oceans.

on the fourth tier you get the ancestors of killer whales, animals so efficient at their job that they likely played a large role at outcompeting everything on the higher tiers of this list.

on the fifth tier otodontid sharks of all genera and shapes, aswell as tiger sharks and modern day large sharks, which are formidable predators up to today.

at the base, many, many, MANY types of baleen whales, which probably fed everything farther up on the list.


Edited by Yi Qi, Jan 23 2015, 02:46 AM.
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Furka
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Austroraptor
Jan 23 2015, 01:11 AM
Mathius Tyra
Jan 15 2015, 10:59 PM
^Only females and juveniles live in pod. Male sperm whales are mainly solitary.
Males often group in pods aswell, specally during mating seasons where groups of males often compete for pods of females and calves.

in general, sperm whales are very socializing and vocal animals, and Zygophyseter and Brygymophyseter, other predatory raptorial sperm whales have been found out to be social animals (atleast during hunting and breeding, from the bonebeds we could gather in Japan and Peru) aswell, so i don't doubt it for livyathan either.

infact, from what i could gather, the miocene Peruvian coastal beds of the Pisco-Ica formation groups were a battleground of giant beasts, if anything, it was one of if not the most dangerous seas ever, tied with the cretaceous western interior seaway in that respect.

at the top you had Livyathan melvillei and Carcharocles megalodon, two massive monsters that likely surpassed 13 meters in length, those were undoubtedly the rulers of their enviroment, and the only threat to these creatures would be eachother.

on the second tier you had Brygymophyseter, zygophyseter and its ilk, largely social predatorial whales with toothy mouths and bites far worse than their bark

on the third tier, the "Shark toothed dolphins" or squalodontids, meanarse gigantic orca sized relatives of the ganges and the indus susu, with serrated, shark like teeth and a long, lance like snout that probably allowed these predators to rip enormous chunks of flesh from large whales while they're still alive, they were the allosaurs of the miocene oceans.

on the fourth tier you get the ancestors of killer whales, animals so efficient at their job that they likely played a large role at outcompeting everything on the higher tiers of this list.

on the fifth tier otodontid sharks of all genera and shapes, aswell as tiger sharks and modern day large sharks, which are formidable predators up to today.

at the base, many, many, MANY types of baleen whales, which probably fed everything farther up on the list.


Don't forget psycho pinnipeds like Pelagiarctos, although I don't know if there were any in Peru.

Sea sloths tho ...
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Yi Qi
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Furka
Jan 23 2015, 05:53 AM
Don't forget psycho pinnipeds like Pelagiarctos, although I don't know if there were any in Peru.

Sea sloths tho ...
ohh yes, forgot those aswell, aswell as things such as odobenocetops and the giant seabird pelagornis.
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Jules
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Mihi est imperare orbi universo

Austroraptor
Jan 23 2015, 12:24 PM
the giant seabird pelagornis.
Posted Image

Yeaaah nope nope nope
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